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BUYER/SUBSCRIBER BEWARE!!!! Customer Service is Reprehensible
Posted by Moorelions on 07/09/2011
First, I’d like to start by saying I was previously and originally a Sirius subscriber since 2005 and finally cancelled my subscription in May 2011. I have never written a review on a product or service, but this time I’m so dissatisfied that I’m compelled to write a review. If this review does not turn you away from the service, then it has to be assumed that you are someone who needs to learn from experience.

I knew something was smelly about the merger/acquisition in 2008. I even called to voice my opinion, knowing that it probably wouldn’t matter, but the prospect of another monopoly in the USA was, and still is, disgusting to me. They told me that the hotline provided for the voicing of opinions about the merger/acquisition was for shareholders only. No, I was never a shareholder, but I was a subscriber. Without people like me, there would be no shareholders, yet my opinion doesn’t count for anything. I welcome you to corporate America where the sole goal of a corporation is not customer satisfaction, but to satisfy its shareholders. What that means is turn the biggest profit margin possible without upsetting a majority of customers, yet now the merger/acquisition of Sirius and XM gave the emerging company a monopoly over satellite radio which all Americans should be against. A capitalist economy runs on pure competition, not monopolization of an industry.
Now the company is going through a lawsuit; surprise! The lawsuit against the company is because they raised subscription rates after the merger/acquisition even though part of that deal was an agreement NOT to raise subscription rates. Is that smelly enough for you? If not, continue reading about my personal experience.

So, in May 2011 I called to cancel my subscription to Sirius XM satellite radio. I was at work on lunch break, but I still had a half-hour left, so I decided to go ahead and quickly cancel my account. You should note this from my experience, that you cannot cancel your account through any other means than the phone. Like other reviewers have stated, you can set up your Sirius XM account in 5 minutes online, but cannot cancel it the same way. Ridiculous…

On this lunch break, the first time I called, they needed to transfer me to accounts. No big deal, a normal thing. After waiting on hold for about 5 minutes, a nice woman answered and began to assist me with my cancellation. She took my information and put me on hold to verify the information. While on hold my call was disconnected. The frustrating part is that when calling back, you have to go through the exact same process of being transferred to accounts and put on hold, etc. I call again and get a man in accounts to whom I explained I was on my lunch break and running out of time because of the previous disconnection and the combined hold times of the two phone calls now. He rudely responded with “maybe you should call back when you have more time,” and then somehow the call was dropped. I’ll let you figure that one out. A third call finally got me somewhere, I thought…
Today, July 9, 2011, I get a phone call from Sirius XM radio asking me how everything is and wanting to update my account information. I told him that I canceled and he sounded surprised. I verified my information with him and he said that my account was past due. Ok, now I’m just angry. The auto-bill could not withdraw the payment which is why they wanted me to update my information. If you’re thinking that they automatically set you up on auto-bill upon subscription by default, then you’re thinking right. Of course they have the right to because they put it in the fine print of the agreement terms. Fortunately for me, they could not auto-bill my credit card because it was closed.
Anyhow, he put me through to accounts because he can see that there were notes from May explaining that I wanted to cancel the account because I no longer had the radio. Just like before, while on hold, my call got disconnected. It’s really a great business model for a scam; only offer a way to cancel over the phone and keep disconnecting the customer in hopes to discourage them enough to forget about it.
When I called back later, I was not happy and I’m sure it was known on the other end of the line. I apologized for my initial tone and explained that I understood that it was not the fault of this person I was talking to and just wanted to cancel my account. I also asked for a manager’s name and contact info just in case I got disconnected again and was told that he cannot give me that information because there were no managers or some real shady explanation that just upset me even more. So I now learned that there is almost no way of cancelling an account AND there is NO accountability!
Well, I got through to accounts successfully on this last call and am convinced that I got the most helpful person at Sirius XM radio. She immediately canceled my account and then had me login online to see that visually there were no charges or radios on my account anymore. This is my warning; use close consideration before subscribing to this service.

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Posted by Alain on 2011-07-11:
You also may want to report this to: http://www.fcc.gov/complaints and http://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov
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Sirius is the Worst Customer Service ever
Posted by Sirius is the worst ever on 07/06/2011
NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- They turned me over to a collection agency, because I emailed that I wasn't renewing the service on a car I was trading in. They said I had to "call" to cancel the service. But when you call, you are on hold for 30-60 minutes. When I got through, you are dealing with someone in Thailand or India, who you can barely understand. So they've outsourced American jobs, made it damn near impossible to cancel, and then they try to ruin your credit when you don't renew. STAY AWAY FROM SIRIUS, UNLESS YOU WANT A LIFETIME SUBSCRIPTION THAT YOU CAN NEVER CANCEL, ITS LIKE THE MAFIA, ONCE YOUR IN, YOUR IN. Customer service and customer rights are non-existent. Short the stock, because they cannot survive with this kind of customer service IMHO.

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Posted by azRider on 2011-07-06:
I would never try to cancel any contract service with an email. you may have to wait on the phone for a long time, and put up with the BS, but you have to do that to make sure your cancelled. an email is not going to work and won't count in a small claims case since anyone can produce an email. its just the bad part of dealing with these companies.
Posted by 777tech on 2011-07-06:
The paying of the Howard Stern multi-millions of dollars is where Sirius Radio Customer Service went to. I am a lifetime customer of theirs so I know takes at least 20 to 30 min. to talk to someone now. They now also want to charge you if you change equipment if you are a lifetime customer with them! No government regulation here!
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Horrible Customer Service!!!
Posted by Nosirius4 on 06/11/2011
My new Ford Escape came with Sirius Radio for the first six months. I really didn't like most of the channels available, but did enjoy having access to MSNBC. However, it has gotten to the point that there are more commercials on Sirius than on standard commercial radio!!! So, I decided to contact customer service to complain. What a nightmare!!! I ended up complaining more about the customer service experience. Horribly ignorant, rude people. I waited on hold for so long, my cordless land line battery expired. I told one representative that I was going to file a complaint with the BBB and she said, "Go ahead and make my day." Then I got connected to someone who sounded like an drunk version of Sam Elliot who was so disgusting it absolutely sealed my confidence in my decision to end this service. Don't waste your hard earned dollars on Sirius - what a waste!!!
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Posted by Alain on 2011-06-12:
I took a quick look at the web and found a pretty fair number of Sirius complaints involving customer service. Sounds like they lost you as a customer. If you want to, you can file a complaint about them at http://www.fcc.gov/complaints
Posted by SIRIUS XM Customer Relations on 2011-06-15:
Sorry to hear about your experience. We would appreciate the opportunity to help and rectify your negative customer experience. Please send us your contact information to sxm_help@siriusxm.com and we will get in touch with you.

SIRIUS XM Customer Relations
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How late is too late to make a business call
Posted by BEJ on 05/19/2011
The phone rang at 2052 last night. When I picked up the line, It was a customer service representative from Sirrus wanting to know how I was enjoying my service and if I had any questions about the service.

I asked her if she knew what time it was. She quoted me the time. I asked why she was making a business call at that hour. She told me it was a computer generated list and she could do nothing about the call except make it.

I said if Sirrus really wanted my opinion, they could call during normal business hour which are generally between 0900-1700.`

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Posted by momsey on 2011-05-19:
Is that 8:52 pm? I don't think that's too late. 9 pm is my general cut off for too late.

Most people are not home during the regular business hours you quoted, so it would not make sense for businesses to make calls like you received during those hours.
Posted by Anonymous on 2011-05-19:
20:52 is 8:52pm military time. Telemarketers can call between 8am and 9pm, I would think that this is also the rule for the type of call the OP received.
Posted by Nohandle on 2011-05-19:
Since I'm one of the few who don't know military time I have to count on my fingers to understand what time you are stating. I do know any call in my area before I believe 7:00 am and after 8:00 pm are not allowed for solicitations, collections and the like. Many individuals have varying work schedules. If someone calls me after 8:00 pm I'll just hang up the phone.
Posted by trmn8r on 2011-05-19:
To me, up until 9pm is ok.

You know, a lot of consumers expect to call at all hours of the day and night now and get customer service. Up until 9pm doesn't seem like a lot to ask in return.

Also, a call like this up until 5pm doesn't make a lot of sense for most people - they are working. Think of the complaints for bothering people during their business hours.
Posted by BEJ on 2011-05-19:
Sorry for the military time--it is used at work--I just automatically use it.

I must be in the minority here because I was think that any time after 7:00pm is late to make a business call. If the person is not at home then leave a message.

Yes I did pick up the phone but was expecting a call from my sister.
Posted by Anonymous on 2011-05-19:
When I worked collections, we were allowed to call between 8 am and 9 pm, 7 days a week, including holidays
Posted by Nohandle on 2011-05-19:
To my way of thinking there is a great deal of difference in a customer calling customer service and a business/organization calling an individual. I expect customer service to be open extended hours for the benefit of customers but by golly don't call me at home at an ungodly hour unless I've requested it.
Posted by trmn8r on 2011-05-19:
Well, I didn't mean they should call at all hours of the night, like 10:30pm or midnight.

It seems to be a toss up as to whether 8:52 is too late for the average Joe or Sue.

I know that I won't make personal calls after 9pm to most people, and I feel a bit uneasy doing it after 8:30. I can understand someone not being thrilled about receiving a business call at this hour, but I'm on the fence as to whether they should do it.
Posted by Nohandle on 2011-05-19:
I've gotten so observant of others that I seldom call a friend after 7:00 p.m. the reason being they are early risers or are in the middle of the evening meal. I pretty much know my friend's schedules that I know when to call. My SIL stays up half the night and sleeps until noon. I believe we're talking about calls FROM a business to a CUSTOMER or would be customer. It's bad enough if I'm home during the day but I get really angry when I receive those early/late evening calls.
Posted by BEJ on 2011-05-19:
Perhaps I should have added this this was an unsolicited call. I had recently purchased a new car that came with a 3 month free trial. I not not expecting a call from them at all.
Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-05-19:
Probably, somewhere in the paperwork, there was a clause stating that you agreed to receive solicitations or follow ups to your free trial period. I always look for those clauses on "deals". However, this was not really a business call, but a follow up on your service. You need to advise them to discontinue the calls.
BTW, I love my Sirrus.
Posted by Venice09 on 2011-05-19:
In New York, calls are permitted until 9:00 p.m. I think that's reasonable considering a lot of people aren't home during the day and don't get home until after 7:00 p.m.
Posted by tnchuck100 on 2011-05-19:
Not too late. Still had 8 minutes to spare.

Sirrus/XM customer relations has serious issues but this isn't it.
Posted by Anonymous on 2011-05-19:
I do the same BEJ. I ask them if they know what time it is and when they tell me the time I say "Exactly. I'ts afer bedtime in my house, and you just woke me up."
I ask that they make a note not to call me after a certain hour as I am not apt to be amenable to any sales pitch call I have to get up out of bed to answer.
They all, without fail, fall silent a moment and then begin to stumble all over themselves apologizing and end the call with a quickness.

Only once, long ago, did one try to tell me, after I explained it was late for me, that they were allowed to call up until a certain hour. I responded with, "Not my house you're not."
Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-05-19:
if all else fails....just be as rude and obscene as possible when talking to the rep. Use curse words against their momma, daddy, company etc.....have fun with it.
Posted by Anonymous on 2011-05-19:
Lol jkt!
Posted by old fart on 2011-05-19:
Up until 2 weeks ago an Indian phone room lady used to call almost daily trying to sell diabetic supplies. (I'm not diabetic)
I launched into the most obscene tirade I could muster and she hung up!
I haven't had a call since!
Posted by momsey on 2011-05-19:
I do feel bad for telemarketers and other people who make calls like the Sirius ones the complaint is about. Yeah, they're annoying, but obviously telemarketing is lucrative, otherwise companies wouldn't do it. So someone's gotta do the job, some people really need the job, and they have to call who they are told when they are told. It's a rough job.
Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-05-19:
I don't feel bad, it's part of the job. If they can't handle it quit...and no I really don't care if they have a family to feed, can't find something else..etc.
Posted by Nohandle on 2011-05-19:
I thoroughly enjoy the political calls whenever that period comes around. I remind them I'm on the NDNC list and several of the idiots have actually told me political calls were exempt from the list. Ain't that swell? I am aware of that and you don't want to know how I responded.
Posted by Jerry on 2011-05-20:
They called me twice in one night. But it was about 5:30.
Posted by Anonymous on 2011-07-25:
XM/Sirius did the same thing to me after I purchased a car and it had a trial subscription. When I wouldn't pick up the phone at home they started calling me at work. Unacceptable! I informed their corporate office and the car dealership.
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Billing and Customer Service
Posted by Mross01 on 04/19/2011
NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- I received several emails from Sirius that they couldn’t bill my credit card because it was expired. I didn’t have an auto-renewal on the account and when I purchased the service, I paid for 3 years. Two years into the service they are saying they need to bill me to renew it, which was what the auto-renewal bill was for. I repeat I did not have an auto-renewal on the plan, I never agree to those terms.

Since I paid for three years and they were billing me at the two year mark I decided to cancel my service since I don’t want to work with such a disreputable company. I called them to make sure they understood to cancel my service. The representative I got barely understood English but I tried to explain I wanted to cancel my service. Instead he insisted that he would give me 5 months for some price, I told him I had no interest in continuing the service. After quite an ordeal I thought he understood what I was saying. This was Feb 15th.

On March 19, after receiving several emails saying they were still trying to charge my credit card, I called them back to see why they haven’t canceled my service. I waited 20 minute for a representative to answer. They said they were trying to bill me for the service and did I want to cancel the service. By this time I didn’t even own the vehicle anymore and told them so. After the conversation they asked me what I wanted to do. Again trying to explain I didn’t have the vehicle (and I wanted to active a new vehicle) and cancelled the service back in Feb they still were asking what I wanted to do. I couldn’t seem to get it across to the representative (again didn’t understand English) that I didn’t want the service, was not going to pay for the service on that vehicle and I didn’t own the vehicle anymore. The representative then asked if I wanted to speak to a supervisor to cancel my service and I told them I definitely wanted to speak to them.

The supervisor got on the phone (after a 10 minute wait) and asked what they could do for me. I went through the whole scenario again and she asked me what I wanted to do. So I went through the whole thing again and still never seemed to get it across to her (she did not understand English any better than the others). The supervisor finally said let me transfer you to a supervisor to cancel your service and put me back on hold without even trying to understand what I was trying to say and that I wanted to activate a different vehicle. I waited on hold for another 20 minutes with no answer I finally hung up.

I still don’t have resolution on the ordeal. I was actually calling to activate my new car as well as figure out what was going on with the vehicle that I no longer owned, but ended up with no resolution on the issue and no service on the new car.

From my perspective Sirius is the worst ran company and the worst customer service I have ever had the unfortunate dealings with. Even trying to give them business they weren’t able to understand what I was asking for or trying to explain.
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Posted by unhappy999 on 2011-04-20:
With all this trouble, I'm not sure why you would even want this service your new car. You said you were just going to get rid of it on your old car because of billing issues so why would you want it on your new car?
Posted by Anonymous on 2011-04-20:
Im sort of confused too. You want to cancel service because you dont own the car, but wanted to put it on another car? Then youre not really canceling, you're just transferring service to a new radio receiever. Did you tell them that?
Posted by jean O'Dell on 2013-06-20:
I returned a call from sirrius to make arrangement to pay my bill and they tell me I have no account with them so if I don't have an account why is someone calling me and why when I drive the truck or the Jeep I listen to the Sirrius radio. All I want to do is either get a bill or at least a human voice who will help me with this problem. I want to pay a year in advance so that I wont have this trouble again.
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Phone harassment
Posted by Ken5432 on 02/16/2011
I have received 3 plus phone messages a day informing me that my service is discontinued. This was a leased vehicle and was turned in 3 months ago.

When calling customer service, they are not even aware of what vehicle they are providing service for. This company needs to be AWARE that many people lease vehicles and are not going to renew satellite radio on a vehicle they no longer own.

Very Dissatisfied and will not renew the service on my new leased vehicle.
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Held Hostage By Sirius
Posted by SiriusSucker on 02/13/2011
NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- I only need Sirius so I can listen to Howard Stern. There are so many other options out there for music that Sirius is simply not needed. However, because I want to hear Howard every day, I am being held hostage by Sirius and am being nickled and dimed at every turn, then disappointed that the "upgrade to premium Internet service" is not working, all of the links to download the Blackberry app are dead, and unless you call their "Listener Care" Department, they don't tell you that the problem is on their end.

Currently, I'm paying for their so-called "Premium Internet Radio" and none of it works. After an hour and a half conversation last weekend and a half hour conversation with "Listener Care" today, I was told that if I'm not satisfied, I should just cancel my Internet radio subscription. As much as I would like to tell them to F-Off and cancel my subscription, I would have no way to hear Howard Stern. So there you have it... I'm held hostage by Sirius because of one piece of exclusive programming that I like, that I pay a premium for, that they can't seem to get to work, and they do not appear to be in any hurry to fix it. They did offer a $10 credit to be applied to next year's renewal, but the money is not the issue, nor am I even certain I will stay a subscriber for another month, much less more than a year from now.

Three times a year when it's time to renew one of my three radios, I get invoices from Sirius, each with a $2 "Invoice Fee". Not sure why they feel it necessary to fleece us for $2 to send us their bill, but that's a perfect example of the way they operate.

This year I decided to do automatic renewal to avoid that made-up fee and get all three radios in line to be auto-renewed ONE TIME a year. I only wish their customer service and technical support were as efficient as their billing department. Their billing department is very good at taking my money, but their customer service and technical support seem to be absent (or at least the opposite of helpful) when I have had to call to complain.

To add insult to injury, after I renewed all three radios for a year each, I was informed that I no longer had Internet Radio available (a service that was previously included with my subscription), unless I paid an additional $3 a month for it. They touted that this cost would give me "near CD quality" audio and allow me to download and use their Blackberry App for listening from my smart phone.

So, after paying them $300+ for my three radios, I am now paying an additional $36 a year just to be able to hear Howard from my computer. Again, Intenet radio service used to be included with the subscription, and now it's an up-charge.

After all of this, I still cannot listen via my Blackberry because they have made the app unavailable (all the links are dead), and their so-called "upgraded Internet radio console" won't play any content.

If you can get by without Howard Stern, you do not need Sirius XM. Nearly all the rest of their content is available elsewhere, and usually for free.

They only care about your money regardless of how slick and relentless their advertising is. They could care less if they have technical issues... they already have your money and are hoping you just blow it off and don't complain. If I could get Howard Stern some other way, cancelling this money-grubbing company would be a no-brainer. Avoid this company at all costs!
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Posted by Skye on 2011-02-13:
Howard Stern signed on for another 5 years for Sirius radio.

I remember the days when Howard Stern was actually available on regular FM, and had his TV show. I never really cared for him, but he was entertaining at times.
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Don't subscribe
Posted by Wockster on 01/18/2011
After buying a car equipped with ability to get satellite radio, I got bombarded with mail and phone calls advising me that I had a trial subscription. I tried to use it and found that I had 3 channels, all promotional. I don't drive all that much, so ignored it. Then I got a phone call asking for a subscription. I told them I wasn't all that interested and really didn't get to try the system. I got a promotional rate of $7+ a month if I provided a credit card for 6 months. I consented and gave them the card. I couldn't get service (in a large metropolitan area) and called and emailed for weeks. On two occasions I drove for an hour or so trying to get the satellites to track. Finally one day I got service and I must say there were some interesting channels. A day or two later the service was gone, and I couldn't get it and decided to give up. Mind you I paid by credit card for 6 months. Then I get collection letters and threats to suspend service. I call them and ask what's going on and get people who are real idiots, one of whom tells me I need to reset the satellite reception every day due to my location! I say when I did that it took me an hour and my drive is like 15 minutes, and I got the rudest answer, causing me to officially terminate. I can't tell the difference between terminate and not terminate as I had no service anyway. Well, they are trying to get $14 out of me with endless statements and phone calls while I am driving. The people who call are kids, who follow a script, trying to talk sense is like talking to a wall. I cannot see how this company can succeed. I guess I'm glad that they lost my credit card as I am sure I would be getting billed forever. Unless you love the service and get consistently good reception, don't bother with this company.

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Posted by Alain on 2011-01-19:
Seems Sirius is fine as long as you don't have to deal with their customer service.
Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-01-19:
The couple of times I've had to contact Sirrus CS, I did not have any problems.
Mornin' Alain
Posted by Alain on 2011-01-19:
Mornin', Jkt. I've never dealt with them, so your experience is better than my speculation!
Posted by Alain on 2011-01-19:
That didn't sound right. Your experience is better than my speculation!
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The complaints are true, stay far away from Sirius!
Posted by Zzzhuh on 01/17/2011
The complaints are true, stay far away from Sirius!

After reading complaint after complaint about Sirius Radio billing dept. on various internet forums, I decided to subscribe, but pay by "MAIL INVOICE ONLY". That way, if they were as bad as people say, then they wouldn't have my credit card number to bill without my permission.

Later, I called to Cancel my subscription about a month before the renewal date. They asked for my telephone number, and then told me that I couldn't cancel my account because I didn't have an account.

Then I got a bill in the mail that had my account number on it. I called just before the renewal date, and specifically canceled by providing the account number.

A month later I got an email saying that I owed them overdue payment. I called and spoke with a supervisor: He said that he saw the record of my earlier call requesting to cancel the account, but that I had failed to ask for the "Cancellation Department" and that until I spoke with them, the overdue amount would continue to increase, and that they would hand the bill over to a collection agency. Then he hung up on me. (That was a Sirius supervisor!).

I called back and spoke with a different supervisor. I explained that I had been trying to cancel over and over, and he said that I didn't really have to speak to the cancellation dept. He said he would cancel the account and delete the balance due. (Thank You Pedro for at last canceling the account!) He also said I could verify that he had cancelled it and deleted the balance due by logging into the website, with a new ID and password that he provided.

Finally, I'm done with Sirius, and my advice is the complaints are true, stay far away from Sirius!!!
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Automatic payments
Posted by 2dancers on 01/14/2011
In December of 2009 I purchased gift cards for my daughter in law as a Christmas gift. She entered the info and had service for the year. However last month she was automatically renewed on her credit card which they also had on file. I also was automatically charged for her renewal in Dec. 2010. When I called they told me that they had explained that I would automatically be renewed. I asked how they could do that on gift cards. They then wanted to know where the gift cards were. I stated she used them which they disagreed with. They finally agreed to cancel the charge to my account although they did charge for usage from the 23rd of Dec. 2010 until today Jan. 14 2011 because they said she had the service on which had nothing to do with me.

To summarize. I was automatically charged a recurring fee for 180.00 worth of gift cards. She also was billed for the year on her credit card.
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Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-01-14:
There is a check on you account information that allows you to opt out of auto renewal. Love my Sirrus, but opted out of the auto renew. Had it for several years now.
Posted by trmn8r on 2011-01-14:
I realize you summarized your complaint, but I could not understand what happened. Is it essentially a case of double charging for one subscription, to both her and your credit cards after the first year ran out?
Posted by 2dancers on 2011-01-14:
I was auto renewed on gift cards. I did not have anything to do with the actual contract.
She used the gift cards for a year of service and was automatically charged for another year and had never been billed.
Posted by trmn8r on 2011-01-14:
What does you "were auto renewed on gift cards" mean? They bought you gift cards? How can you be auto renewed if you aren't on the contract?

I think I understand what happened to your daughter. That sounds like some kind of fine print type thing.
Posted by momsey on 2011-01-14:
I don't understand either. Were both of you charged for the year? Or were you issued new gift cards automatically?
Posted by unhappy999 on 2011-01-14:
I have a new car and it came with Sirius free for 6 months. Does anyone know if they will send me a bill at the end to keep it going or do I need to contact them to cancel it? I never received anything about this as of yet.
Posted by madconsumer on 2011-01-14:
with all my new vehicles, i got sirus for free for 6 months as well. they wont send you a bill, but they will hound you to sign up for service.

frankly, i never found sirus radio all that.
Posted by 2dancers on 2011-01-14:
I bought gift cards and at the same time the following year I was recharged.
Posted by unhappy999 on 2011-01-14:
I don't the Sirius radio either. Its not something I want to spend my money on.
Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-01-14:
I travel putting 1200-2k on the car a month. Looking up radio stations and having to listen to religious music on I-20 in Louisiana just don't get it. I love my Sirius.
Posted by momsey on 2011-01-14:
I don't even drive that much but I love Sirius. When I'm without it in a car, I'm driven nuts by the lack of options.
Posted by madconsumer on 2011-01-15:
lol jkt, that is why they made the ipod and cd!
Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-01-15:
got both but get tired of the same old thing.
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