Fred Meyer Complaint - "Service" dogs in stores - Lack of enforcing no dog policy

Posted by Venice09 on 2011-02-07:

I'm not too knowledgeable about this, but it does sound like some people in that particular store are taking advantage of the laws allowing service animals. I assumed service dogs were better trained than what is described in your review. I read somewhere that store owners/managers are not allowed to ask customers if it's a service animal. I agree that they should be tagged or somehow identifiable.

Posted by Starlord on 2011-02-07:

Au contraire, venice. The only question they MAY ask is if it is a service animal. And contrary to popular belief, there is no requirement for a vest. We have two service dogs, chihuahua/Mexican Hairless mixes. They are both hearing assist dogs, as we are both hard of hearing, and the dogs alert us to sounds we cannot hear, and people approaching us. In addition, my dog, Munchkin, is cross-trained for diabetes. Under the Americans with Disabilities Act, service animals are allowed to go anywhere the person with them can go. My wife carries ID cards for both animals with all the pertinent information, including the 800 number for the Justice Department, ADA desk. Youa re not allergic to dogs, no one is allergic to animals, but the dander of certain animals. Our dogs are cleaner than most people and better behaved than most kids. At least, they don't run wild through the store, tearing up the toy department. We are responsible for keeping our dogs under control, and if there is a problem, WE will remove it ourselves. How would you like it if you were told your children could not enter the store? One of my pet peeves is people who try to pass off pets as service animals, as they give legitimate service animal owners a black eye. the dog who urinated in the meat department should have been removed immediately. That behavior is unacceptaqble.

Posted by Venice09 on 2011-02-07:

I don't remember where I read that, Star, but it did seem odd that store owners/managers could not verify that an animal was indeed a service animal. I think the OP is referring to people who try to pass off pets as service animals, which I think everyone would agree is wrong. If that's what is going on at this Fred Meyer, I think they need to crack down on the violators. Are owners required to carry ID for their service animals?

I agree that service dogs are more well behaved and cleaner than some children.

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-07:

I am allergic to cats and some dogs (dander), but only when I am in a very confined space, like someone's home. Otherwise, I have no problem with them. Some people treat their animals like children and feel it is fine to bring them everywhere--and I'm talking about people who have non-service dogs just to be clear. Some kids do behave more like animals than animals themselves.

It does sound like this Fred Meyer is allowing any dogs to be allowed into the store. People really need to be more respectful and stop stretching the boundaries just so they can take Fluffy along. Star, I never knew there is no requirement whatsoever, so I can see how a Store Manager's hands would be tied if someone answers yes to the service dog question.

Posted by fast327 on 2011-02-07:

I'm allergic to people in elevators with high octane perfumes and cologne!

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-07:

Yes, fast, that is a pet peeve of mine too. It actually makes me sneeze. Why do people impose their "fragrances" on us? Many people are truly allergic to these.

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-07:

Contact the store manager and give your feedback to corporate. And hey, it's Aurora Ave., that's actually pretty mild when you consider all the nasty things that that Ave. is known for. I wouldn't walk my dog on Aurora Ave., let alone take him in a store there. here is an interesting link, at the bottom it details how the dogs should respond in different situatuions in public.
http://usservicedogs.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.tos&pop=1&Itemid=2&vmcchk=1&Itemid=2

Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-02-07:

While service dogs need not have identification. It seems as if this particular location allows pets in general. Issue here seems to be irresponsible pet owners. I'm like Star...my Anatolian hearing assist dog behaves better and is cleaner than most kids and quite a few adults I know.

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-07:

It's a shame we live in country so devoid of any notion of freedom that our Government forces shop owners to allow dogs into their stores. Of course now the consequence of this is that we now have a population explosion of service animals. Wonder why.

Boy I 100% agree with the OP on this one. A grocery store is no place for dogs. No if, ands or sniffing butts about it.

Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-02-07:

Roth, and what do you suggest a responsible, handicapped person do? Come walk a mile in my shoes, if I could. Put some earplugs in your ears and try to go shopping. I am for as little gubment as possible. If a person's assist animal is not behaving properly, unclean, aggressive, etc management has the right to remove them. It seems in THIS PARTICULAR CASE that neither management nor the pet owners were living up to their responsibilities.

Posted by Obsfucation on 2011-02-07:

I think this whole issue could be cleared up if service animals were required to be clearly marked. I don't think this would be a hardship for their owners, and may in fact save them a great deal of aggravation.
The penalties for passing off a pet as a service animal should be as high, or higher than those imposed on parking (illegally) in a handicapped marked parking spot.

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-07:

Obs comment illustrates perfectly the natural evolution when the government sticks their nose in where it doesn't belong. You need even more regulations, more crimes against the state and more tribute to the government. God it's enough to make me vomit.

Now the right answer is to let businesses decide whether or not to accommodate service animals. Let customers with service animals make consumer choices based upon those businesses meeting their individual needs. Collectivism doesn't work. Never has. Never will. Let the free market handle this because it will do so brilliantly. It's just that simple.

Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-02-07:

Roth, OB has a good point, but the cost for registering would be prohibitive to many handicapped people.
For lack of a different comparison, the difference between a business posting against service animals and a posting in a business prohibiting law abiding citizens from carrying weapons, is choice. The gun toter has a choice, the handicapped person does not.

Posted by dan gordon on 2011-02-07:

I've shopped at that store and have to agree. I don't think these are service animals at all just people walking in with their dogs. I'd suggest sending a link to this article to FM corporate

Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-02-07:

dan, thanks for the clarification. That makes it a whole different situation.

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-07:

"The gun toter has a choice, the handicapped person does not. "

So as private business owner I should lose my rights and control of *MY* property because of somebody else's misfortune? I just don't get it. That's not freedom man. That socialism/collectivism/tyranny.

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-07:

Why does someone's need for a service dog trump someone else's allergies to dogs?

On a thread from a while ago, there was great discussion on how much cleaning a hotel must go through if a dog so much as stepped paw into a hotel room. The need for such cleaning was because the next patron may be severely allergic to dogs. Okay. What if that same patron wanted to shop in this store with the OP, with these "service dogs" prancing several feet away from their owners?

Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-02-07:

I apologize, but common sense and reasonable discussion has gone out the window here. Bye! Tapes fingers...

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-07:

So I'm to understand it's common sense for a private business owner to be forced to cater to a very small portion of the public at his own detriment and expense.

Toto makes a great point. The government is forcing business owners to accommodate one group of customers at the detriment of another group of customers. How's that fair?

Like they say fair and common sense is in the eye of the beholder. If it's for my favor it's always fair.

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-07:

Sheesh...I would have gone straight to the manager and said something about the dog's owner misbehaving. I'm all for service dogs in public places but they need to be well trained with well trained masters.

Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-02-07:

I guess, according to your reasoning, it was alright for businesses banning blacks, different restrooms etc? So would you think that anarchy is the better way? (tightening tape on fingers)

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-07:

So I guess according to your reasoning everybody should be forced by the government to accommodate everybody else? Make provisions for short people in the NBA? Fat girls in the Miss America contest? Smart people in congress?

I don't know what anarchy has to do with depriving people of their property rights but I gotta be honest it can't be any worse than imperialistic bankrupt social state we find ourselves in today.

Liberals are always touting darwinism unless of course "survival of the fittest" runs a muck of liberal dogma.

Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-02-07:

1. you did not answer my question is it ok for a business to keep people out because of their color, religion etc?, politicians are also good at avoiding things they do not want to face.
2. I'm more of a centrist and not a member of any polluted party. Vote for the person, just so happens the majority of the ones I vote for are conservative.
3. If the short, fat, are up to the task and make the team, no problem, ain't no smart politician. My grandson's "mother" found out my son had signed him up for competitive basketball, she signed him up for one of those feely good leagues where they don't keep score and they have to play everybody so nobodies feelings get hurt...bs....bring back dodgeball!
3. COMMON SENSE must prevail and that is what's wrong now. We see the same thing, just phrase it different.

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-07:

To answer your question Jkt what another man does with his property is none of my concern. If a restaurant owner wanted ban jewish canadian latino catholic black smart asses then I say fine that's your god given right to do so and I will go else where. I would not look to the government to force a man to accept my presence or my business. I don't desire to be where I'm not wanted all this government BS serves to do is make it hard (that's what she said) to know where that is.

I strongly believe that whether it works for or against me. I believe in freedom. And let me tell ya brother true freedom is as ugly as Ruby Senn.

Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-02-07:

Roth, then anarchy is exactly what you are describing.
Anarchy (from ἀναρχίᾱ anarchíā, "without ruler") may refer to any of the following: * "No rulership or enforced authority." * "Absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power; political disorder. ...
You have to have some sort of collective leadership, controlled (ie your vote) by the citizens. Fortunately the founders of the country realized that. I will say it again....personal responsibility and common sense have gone for the most part. But, I do agree that it's cause is in part to our gubment handing out, enabling, and stretching into every aspect of our lives.

Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-02-07:

The poster had a valid complaint regarding animals in the store, as dan gordon stated, he has been there and states that this particular store allows pets. Don't go there.
It is a person's responsibility or "right" (if they have an allergy, phobia, shakes etc stemming from "something") to be aware of their surroundings and avoid their particular problem.

It's really simple.

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-07:

I don't get some think service animals are the only solution. It just occurred to me we have four deaf and two blind people on the payroll and they get by every day without service animals. And when I say deaf or blind I mean 100%.

So people CHOOSE to take their service animals into a business. There are other alternatives they CHOOSE not to explore.

Again I do not understand why anybody should be forced by law to pay for somebody else's misfortune.

Posted by trmn8r on 2011-02-07:

Urine is sterile, so I don't see a problem with urinating in the meat section unless it is on the package of beef I desire. In the cafe, yes. It's just another cleanup, if you think about it.

I've never heard of any sort of "vest" requirement, if you are suggesting some form of license is required to be displayed. It's too bad in this case, because it sounds like the store may be passively encouraging this activity. It is hard to control stupid, meaning the owners who feel the need to being their non-service animals into the store.

Posted by madconsumer on 2011-02-07:

i totally agree poster!!!

althought the government does not require service animals to be marked, they should require service animal owners to cleanup after them!!!!!

i would raising heck if i saw a service animal pee on something.

Posted by Starlord on 2011-02-07:

Mad, as a matter of fact, the animal's owner is responsible for having their animal under control, and is liable for any damage the dog does. In the OP's case, the owner could and should have had to pay to clean up the offending urine. ript posted a site for service dog questions, and on that site is a very good article on service dogs, citing not only trhe business ownber's responsibility, but the animal's owner's as well. If you have any further questions or comments, call the U.S. Dept. of Justice ADA Information Line at 1-800-514-0301. They will be glad to answer any concerns you have.

Posted by CrystalSword on 2011-02-07:

Roth, while I am not 100% deaf, there are some sounds I can not hear...sirens when I drive is one that I can not hear...my dog Bearbear lets me know and I pull off right away, its one of the tasks he does for me. The dogs are with us
because I feel safer knowing he'll hear sirens for me and I won't endanger someone else if he signals me.

On the other hand, in the warmer months, the temps inside a vehicle can cause brain-damage or death in an animal in a very short amount of time, I will not leave our animals locked in a vehicle while I shop. Opening the windows is not always an option, it still gets hot in a vehicle, then there is also the possibilty of a dog or dogs getting stolen in the parking lot.
Our dogs are small, and they are cute, and people are always trying to pick them up. A trained service dog is not cheap...imagine going to your car and finding that your pet or service animal has disappeared....

I also find that most people who have been blind or deaf since birth, or at least a very young age, have more confidence in their ability to get around and function in the work world. Someone who is relatively new to blindness or deafness, the world suddenly becomes a very scary place.

I lost the hearing in one ear about 40 years ago, thanks to my 1st husband causing the eardrum to rupture. I'm slowly losing the hearing in the other ear and can not tell what direction sounds are coming from, I don't hear people coming up behind me or approaching my right side.

Bearbear has been taught hand signals to stop and sit...while I verbalize fine, I don't yell at or command him verbally when in public. Both dogs have been taught to lie down and nap while we are eating out. And they get a bath once every 10 days with a mild, tearless puppy shampoo
so they are clean and don't have dander to aggrevate allergies. I use a blanket or my jacket for them to lay on so they don't leave any hair behind and they've been very well accepted wherever we go.

Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-02-07:

Crystal +100
Roth, Like I said, walk a mile in our shoes, wear some earplugs and go shopping. You will only get a glimpse of what HOH go thru. Not everyone is able to afford the luxury of an assist animal or wants it. I do not know what business you are in, but my assist dog, alerts me to the phone, people coming up, cars etc. Part of it is my fault, I hate wearing my hearing aids. You need to have a frank discussion with your co-workers and get their real opinion if they are able to do so without reprimand.

Posted by Starlord on 2011-02-07:

The city of Casa Grande, AZ has a great program to help city officials understand what we live with. Twice a year, city workers, except police and fire, of course, are required to be handicapped for a day. They have their ears plugged, or wear welding goggles to simulate partial or total blindness, they have to use a wheelchair for that day, and other methods to let them know what it is like to have to live with a disability. Many changes have been made in the city, like ramps at intersections and public buildings, a fund from a federal grant to install many handicapped friendly electric doors, and so on. Many businesses have gotten on the bandwagon and have tried this program. Of course, they don't have access to a supply of animals able to work with the employees, because it takes a long time to train an animal, then train them to work with a specific person. Animals obtained from any of several organizations are worth from $10,000 to $20,000, and many cannot afford that. Luckily, we trained ours from 10 weeks of age, but that doesn't mean ours are any less trained.

Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-02-07:

Star, that being said, spending my $$$$ to put in hc friendly curbs in all neighborhoods is a waste of money. They put them in ours and there is no one that uses them. Gotta go with Roth in that this is a waste of money.

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-07:

I'm glad stores permit service animals. Now, the other (irresponsible owners) need to get a clue and keep their dogs at home. No one should have to tell them--but I guess some people have no common sense, therefore, the store manager should get involved any way he/she can. I think that's all this post was trying to convey. Nothing more, nothing less.

Posted by Venice09 on 2011-02-08:

Perfect response, Obs. This should be treated exactly like handicapped parking. It's a simple way to weed out and punish the violators.

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-08:

I get it you guys like having your service animals with you. Cool. That still doesn't justify the government forcing a private business owner to accomodate your 'likes' and 'wants'. I believe in freedom and I believe in living my life for my sake. You'll never convince it's right for the government to force me to live my life for your sake. We just got us a just philosophical difference.

Posted by Venice09 on 2011-02-08:

The real shame is that the government has to force people to do the right thing, and that it doesn't come naturally.

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-08:

No the real shame is people who expect the government to force private business owners to accommodate others.

Posted by Venice09 on 2011-02-08:

I'll rephrase.

The real shame is that the government has to force people, including private business owners, to do the right thing, and that it doesn't come naturally.

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-08:

The right thing according to who? I don't see where letting dogs into a grocery store is either right or wrong. It's merely a choice. A choice you agree with therefore you want forced upon somebody by law.

Posted by Venice09 on 2011-02-08:

Humanity.

Live together or die alone.

Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-02-08:

well put V

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-08:

Here's some good humanity for ya courtesy of the ADA. A Detroit lady was able to walk away with over 300 grand because an apartment complex refused to waive their no-pet policy to accommodate the ladies emotional-assistance dog. What the sam hill is an emotional assistance dog anyway.

This is what happens when good intentioned people try to force by way of law their good intentions upon others.


http://www.morelaw.com/verdicts/case.asp?n=2%3A03-cv-73034-ADT&s=MI%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20&d=29671

Posted by Starlord on 2011-02-08:

jkt, I use a power chair, and if there were no cutouts at intersections, I would have to operate my chair in the street. Is that right?

Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-02-08:

Star, I understand, but exiting at a driveway and continuing to the next one doesn't seem to be a problem. I just don't understand the difference. I have been in this house for 40yrs and know everyone in the neighborhood. NOT ONE (emphasis only) wheelchair bound, crutch bound, handicapped person has ever used them (city spent @ $6,000.00 per ramp that includes tearing up the existing sidewalk and curbs, putting in new ones, replacing the grass etc). Heck, all the kids walk down the middle of the street anyway. I could understand in a retirement community, Around hospitals, care places etc, but to mandate them in every neighborhood is a waste of taxpayer $$$. You know I am handicapped (arthritis & HOH) but I just can't justify the $$$ vs the benefits.

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-08:

No Star, it's not right. It would only seem "right" to someone not faced with your daily challenges. Your freedom would be taken away. That's just not right at all. Those curbs are also good for other people too, such as mom's with strollers, lest we not forget that.

I do understand what you mean, jkt. Maybe they could use a bit of common sense when installing them in little used areas. I live in a small town in the US and we have them everywhere too. I do see disabled people using them when I'm out walking. I guess it just depends on where you live. People go out a lot in our town because they don't have to drive to the small businesses.

Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-02-08:

"common sense", now that ain't gonna happen anymore.
There has to be a middle ground somewhere.

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-02-08:

I know, jkt. It's gone right out the window in most instances.

Posted by Starlord on 2011-02-08:

No one may be using it now, but just remember, every able bodied person is only seconds from having to use all kinds of special equipment. A knee strike that took all of a quarter second, and I went from being a bowler, dancer, martial artist, stunt man and more, to being a couch or mouse potato. We have gotten far afield from the OP's original complaint, that of people fraudulently passing pets off as service animals. Store managers or owners need to learn more about the laws concerning the ADA. It seems to me that many people do not have an accurate understanding of the ADA and why it was passed.

Posted by jktshff1 on 2011-02-09:

Starlord, but it has been a civil, interesting conversation. We all learned something about the others.

Posted by Starlord on 2011-02-09:

Amen to that, my friend.

Posted by JustMeKimberly on 2011-10-14:

As a person with a disability and a service animal, I feel the need to put my two cents in on this subject. I cannot tell you how many times I have been approached by employees or management of businesses in the Local Eugene/Springfield area about my service animal. I have no problem with this. I almost come to expect it because my service animal is a 9 lb. dog. I have no problem when they ask if she is a service animal, even when she is wearing a vest that makes it fairly obvious if you can read English. I have no problem with the occasions when they are still not satisfied and they inquire what her job is, or what she was trained for. However, there are always too sides to every story, so this comment is aimed at the management or owners or whomever is in charge at the establishments that I DO have a problem with. Businesses: Train your employees about the Americans with Disabilities Act as it pertains to your business. I have actually had an employee make a disbelieving "grunt" and raised an eyebrow when I answered his "inquiry" about my service animal. I have had people demand proof. It has been suggested that I leave a place. I avoid these places now like the plague. They do not receive my patronage. Due to my disability, I do not cause an uproar, for it will make it worse for me in the end. Although now that I think about it, I guess they would get to see first hand whet my service animal's "job" is. Management, if you want to cover your ass, train your people. Not everyone is like me. Some might file a suit due to this behavior. To the people who try to scam about their pet being a service animal: Having a disability sucks. Pretending to have one is beyond stupid. The only word I can think of for that kind of behavior is "Karma". Kinda of like when your mom would say "Don't make that face, or it will stay that way." Because of you, I am the pariah in the grocery store, when if fact, I am innocent of wrongdoing.

Posted by CAT on 2012-05-09:

Sounds like a lot of whining on this board. Toughen up a little people. I don't have a dog at all but when I see them in the store it makes me HAPPY! I have lived in Paris and other countries where people engage animals in restuarants, on buses and everyone gets along just fine. People that are handicapped don't always have a visable handicap, like diabetes, heart disease, CP, etc, There is no need to get uptight. You won't get near enough to a pet in a store unless you go right up to it to set off any allergies. My daughter has allergies and she still chooses to get near animals although we don't own one. My whole family likes seeing the American people loosen up a little and enjoy life.