LAUREL, MARYLAND -- After I refinanced my mortgage I changed my auto-payment on the Chevy Chase Bank website to stop paying my mortgage automatically to Capital One (which owns Chevy Chase Bank) because I had refinanced with another lender. However, the "cancel payment" order apparently only applied to a single month, and a month later Capital One auto-deducted a payment of over $1,500.00 from my account. When I saw this deduction had taken place, I called Capital One two days later to tell them this payment had been made in error.
They said that although my checking account showed the deduction, they had no record that they had received the payment (electronically... between their checking division and mortgage division. No record). They said they couldn't resolve it until they showed it had been received. At the end of the week I called again. Now they said the payment had been processed on the day I called, AFTER I called and reported it was an error, but they would not refund it for ten business days because it was their policy to hold all funds for that amount of time before releasing them.
They said it did not matter that I had called before the payment was received, or that the account was closed; it was their policy to hold all funds for ten business days regardless and the money would be refunded to me by check in two weeks (ten business days plus weekends). On the Monday after the supposed "release date," I called to confirm that the check had been mailed. I was given a runaround and the woman kept telling me it was their policy to hold it for ten business days, and then it took the mail 3-5 days to arrive.
She kept repeating this over and over, even after I said multiple times that I understood that and all I wanted was for them to tell me it had been mailed. She said they showed no record of that, but that she would do research and call me back. Needless to say she didn't, so the next day I called back. This time I was told that not only had it not been mailed, but that only the previous day it had been sent to the cash department for processing.
I asked how this was possible because I had called twice before to discuss the problem with them and had been told each time, by multiple individuals, that the problem was on their records and that according to their policies it would be refunded on a specific date. I was told by the service person that she didn't know why, and that she had no time frame for the refund of my money, but that the process of refunding it had just begun the day before.
Now it's 19 days later and even though they have no account associated with these funds, no right or reason to hold it according to their own policies, they're holding it anyway, apparently because they can and won't tell me when or if I'll get it back. They're being bullies, in essence, just for the sake of it. The attitude is, "What are you going to do about it?" I could really use that $1,500, but no amount of calling and explaining or arguing with them is making them give it back. They don't want to, so they won't.
I've been a Chevy Chase Bank customer for over ten years and I actually refinanced that mortgage after they were bought by Capital One specifically because Capital One introduced a bunch of nasty, harassing policies relating to their mortgage division (in short: if I didn't pay by the first of the month, they called to harass me and ask "if you plan to pay your mortgage this month," even though I've never been late and always pay within the grace period, which is completely legal and fine).
I didn't want to do business with them anymore after that, but this is simply a nightmare-- I knew they were bad, but not THIS bad. I'd warn anybody reading this to stay far away from Chevy Chase Bank and Capital One. It's really been a learning experience for me about just how corrupt a bank can be.
Most banks & credit unions have well established processes to address possible fraud being perpetuated against their customers -- especially phishing by con artists who target the institution's customers. Apparently, capital one does not & does not care. Recommendation: if you're a capital one customer, or thinking of becoming one, use their information and call as if you've got a fraud issue-- and see how you're treated, or would be if you did.
You can state right up front you're sampling their process & be totally honest about your situation -- but save that for when you actually get to the right person. Compare them with other banks. You'll experience a big difference. Guaranteed. My experience: I got two suspicious calls asking for personal info right up front and the reason why was unclear. So I hung up. After the second call my wife called me at work with a similar experience... so I called capital one based on the "bank" phone number provided at its website.
I explained the situation and was passed off a couple of time until I ended up right where I started. I called again, with similar results. I called the two convenient branches I frequent, again to no avail; the people there had no idea. One, however, informed me that the calls were "probably" associated with activating the new atm card they claimed they sent me, but I never received, to replace the card with "chevy chase" on it. As a security precaution they canceled all my atm cards!
But since that didn't explain all the calls-- if it did, why capital one didn't say right up front they were calling to activate a new atm card indicates very poor communication skills. Then, out of rising curiosity I called the following numbers and was referred as follows: 1-888-810-4013 (banking customer service number on cap one's website). The person there referred me to "security" which they assured me where there "24 hours"; based on the experience thus far I asked for the number in case the call got disconnected (blaming my phone for the likely problem).
I was told I was being referred to: **. That was never answered (and the call was not disconnected; the forwarding worked, such as it did). I tried 703-720-2500 which reaches capital one's corporate telephone operator and that person transferred me to the fraud department at ** and the person answering there claimed they did not even service (at the time I called, march 4, 2011) capital one! Maybe that capital one corporate telephone operator was trying to tell me something.
Bottom line: I was never able to contact anybody at capital one that could, or would, address the apparent problem -- that someone seemed to be targeting capital one customers via a focused, and persistent, phishing attack.
Benchmarks: I contacted my long standing credit union, insurer, and a couple of other local banks (one of who is my new bank post-capital one), all based on their website info and asked them the same question I tried to ask capital one. Every one of them was able to explain their process and it took exactly one phone call on my part to get to someone every time. Why would anyone want to do business with a bank that lets its customers fend for themselves? Maybe that's why they're saturation marketing with tv commercials using lunkheaded barbarians (at least in the northern Virginia area) they're targeting the market of dopes they can dupe?
I read somewhere that capital one is (early 2011) providing credit card accounts for higher risk customers than its competition (i.e. It's providing credit cards to those rejected by credit card providers) so, one would naturally expect more problems and it is in capital one's selfish self-interest to provide lousy service given a clientele that would be having above average problems.. Or put another way they may provide the same level of service, which would be diluted by increasing use by sub-tier customers.
MARYLAND -- I have two accounts with Capital One -- for clarity I will refer to them as Account A & Account B. About two weeks ago I used Online Bill Pay to set up some payments because I was traveling out of the country for an extended period. I inadvertently arranged for the funds to be withdrawn from Account A instead of Account B. There were insufficient funds in Account A to cover the payments but more than sufficient funds in Account B. My first indication of the error was when I received an email saying that the payments were not being honored.
I immediately logged into the account, saw the problem and corrected future payments to be taken from Account B. The problem was that in the meanwhile, Capital One had assessed $175.00 in fees against Account A. They paid one of the bills and returned the other 4. When I called Capital One, I explained my error and asked them to help me by waiving some of the fees. They agreed to waive $105.00 in fees. I was also told that the payments that had been rejected were going to be resubmitted into Account A and that I should ensure there were sufficient funds in that account to take care of those payments.
I immediately transferred from Account B into Account A WITHIN THE SAME BANK funds sufficient to take care of the overdraft (including the amount expected to be refunded) AND the payments that had been rejected. This conversation and transaction occurred between 11:30 and 12 noon on Thursday (8/26). So far so good. However, now being careful to monitor the situation, on Friday morning I logged into the accounts. To my surprise, an additional $140.00 in fees had been withdrawn from Account A (into which I had transferred funds the previous day)!
The fees were posted to the same date as the fees that had been visible during my call (8/25) and none of the payments had been made. When I again called Capital One, I was told that the fees had been already assessed but as I had had a negative balance they were not shown; once funds were deposited they were assessed against my account (A). The ledger (of which I have a copy) clearly showed where the negative balance changed to a positive balance on 8/25, but the actual posting of the transfer is correctly shown as 8/26.
I have the following issues with the lack of service provided by Capital One: A bank interested in providing service would, or should, have noted that there were sufficient funds in one account and not the other and acted accordingly. Whether that was to debit the correct account, to contact me about the discrepancy, or both, an assessment of fees under those circumstances would have been well earned. As it is the assessment of fees totaling $210.00 ($315.00 minus the $105.00 refunded) for an error on my part amounts to highway robbery.
There is something fundamentally dishonest about hiding some of the fees that were being assessed against my account because of the error, but then immediately posting AND withdrawing them once funds became available. I realize that much is automated these days, but the reason for my transfer of funds was to take care of the overdraft AND to cover the payments that had been submitted.
Automation means that the so-called "customer service representative" was able to know that the payments had already been submitted a second time, that there were additional fees being assessed as a result, and that payments into the account would be gobbled up by those fees. Her failure to disclose this information to me appears to have been reflective of bank policy and was dishonest.
This is why I feel that I have been lied to and ripped off by Capital One! Acquisition of Chevy Chase, with which my husband has banked for so many years, has changed what used to be an excellent bank into nothing but another uncaring and dishonest institution! I've added a clarification to address the following comments posted: The commenter said it is not the position of any financial institution of which he/she is aware to have in some way accommodated my error.
My point is that it should be. In fact, I have another account at a regional bank and I know for a fact that they would have withdrawn funds from one account to cover the overdraft -- for a fee but I don't mind paying for real service. The commenter questions whether the customer service associate was doing anything "fundamentally wrong" in not making sure that I knew of the extent to which these fees had accumulated, and further that there is no reason to believe the associate didn't already believe that I knew the full amount of the fees being discussed.
My response is that, in light of the conversation that I had with the representative, which extended for about 30 minutes, the representative knew or should have known this information and acted, perhaps according to bank policy but dishonestly from one individual to another. In fact, I believe I listed to her the fees that were posted at the time of our conversation. Furthermore, we also discussed how much I needed to transfer into the account to cover the overdraft fees and the outstanding payments. That would have been the opportune moment to tell me that there were other fees that were not visible to me on the account.
The only possible explanation that lets her, but not the bank off the hook, is that these fees were not visible to her either. To which I ask - why not? The commenter concluded that I should compliment, rather than complain about the bank's actions in having dropped $105.00 in fees. I acknowledge the bank's token actions and had the matter stopped there I would have had no complaint at all about its conduct.
POBOX 85870, VIRGINIA -- To make a long story, I've been a customer for years and have two accounts with them. Each month I would send one check payment for both of my accounts. On my check I would include both acct# numbers, and the dollar# amount for each account. I would also, include both payment slips indicating how to apply my payment. Well in, January of 2009 Capital One applied my check payment to just one of my accounts, not only that they applied my check as a digital payment. Which means the bank does not receive a copy of the front and back of your check. So the account where my payment was not posted to I got a late fee of $40.00 month after month.
I of course tried calling to explain what happened and that my payment was misapplied without success. To date I have been billed illegally $488.00 in late fees since Feb of 2009. Before then, my account was in good standing and current. Not to mention all the payments I have made the last year have not been applied to my balance, but to late fees in which I still getting every month to date on 3-29-10. Not to mention affecting my credit, higher interest rates.
I thought that one could only receive 4 or 5 late fee charges for the same occurrence anyway? Capital One has charged 12 late fee charges for the same occurrence? I continued making my regular monthly $40.00 payments- but Capital One did not apply my payments to my balance but to my late fees, which I'm still accruing every month. I've tried calling to get resolved with no success until I ended up having to file a complaint with the (Comptroller of The Currency) in Aug 2009, which is supposed to be the Watchdog for consumer with Bank Credit Card Complaints.
Truthfully, (Comptroller of The Currency) have not been much help either. They automatically accept the word of the rich Capital One Bank without reviewing the proof I had provided. I'm currently in an appeal status, we'll see what happens. Today, I received a letter from Capital One offering to give a partial credit $390.00 on my account. Stating, I still owe $151.00 dollars in late fees. I do not accept their offer.
I do not accept to pay what I do not owe-not to mention the $480.00 worth of payments I made within the last year not being applied to my balance. Not to mention my credit being scarred. Not to mention, my interest rate they jumped from 14.99% to 22.99. See my partial reply to Capital One Bank: How many other people have you done this too? I notice in your reply that you ignored my request for a copy of the Front & back of my paid check **, why? Because as I stated previously it will show how I requested my payments to be applied. Payments for account #** for $20.00 & #** for $26.00 was misapplied to only acct#**.
And as you mentioned #** payment slip shows a payment amount of $20.00, and on that same slip #** for $26.00 was written. You use the excuse, that because you LIE and state there was no payment slip for #**, that justifies you applying the full amount to # **. I have had these two accounts for years and have paid the same way with two payment slips. There was a second payment slip for #** which shows $26.00 on that same payment slip account #** for $20.00, which matches what is listed on the check.
But say, if it was true, which is not. That is absolutely no excuse for applying my payments to one account, when that payment slip tells you in writing how to apply my payment to the two separate accounts. And list on the payment slip the other account and the dollar to apply payment. Not to mention my check, that it's also in writing tells you how to apply my two payments on both accounts, not just one account.
WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS CRIMINAL- That you would continued to illegally bill me going on a year for late fees, when you have proof of my payment being received and on time. You refuse to admit you made a mistake and correct it! WELL, I REFUSE TO PAY MORE THAN I OWE AND I WILL FIGHT TO THE END. That means contacting and making complaints BBB, News Blogs, Consumer Agencies and spreading the word about your illegal billing practices!
In June 2007 I opened a Cap 1 rewards money market account and transferred funds into it electronically from my credit union. I subsequently set up an automatic monthly transfer ($900) from my credit union checking account to the Cap 1 account. After a couple months I decided I didn't like that arrangement, and I went online and deleted the automatic monthly transfer (more on this comes later). Everything was fine with the account at that point. I periodically checked the account online.
Around May of 2008 I tried to check the account and couldn't get on. The message said that the system was being "serviced" and to try later. After multiple tries over about a week, I finally called the bank. I was told that I couldn't access that account online, because I had to use my "business account" number.
This was interesting, since I don't have a business or a business account. I explained this to the representative who (unbelievably!) argued with me that yes, I did have a business in Orlando, and a business account. I insisted that NO, I don't have a business, don't have a business account, and have never even been to Orlando! When he finally transferred me to another representative the second guy was able to figure out that there was a business account set up with a tax I.d. number the same as my SSN and they had linked the accounts.
While I guess this is a mistake anyone could have made, it did not inspire confidence in me, so I transferred all my money back to the credit union and planned to close the account in a couple weeks. Well, I never got around to closing the account, but since there was no money left, I didn't worry about it.
(Now back to the automatic transfer...) Then, in November of 2008, I got an email saying that my scheduled automatic transfer of $900 would take place that day. I really thought this must be a scam email, but called Cap 1 to make sure. In fact, there WAS a scheduled transfer in their system. When I told them that I had cancelled the automatic transfer online a year ago, the representative replied that the cancellation is only effective for 1 year from when it is placed, AND THEN THE AUTOMATIC TRANSFER REQUEST IS REINSTATED!!
How is that even legal!? I couldn't believe they could do this. I told him to stop the (unauthorized!) transfer. He said he couldn't. I told him to close my account. He said he couldn't. I said "let me talk to someone who can do something." Ten minutes later, I talked to a woman who said she was stopping the transfer as we spoke, and closing the account.
Since I didn't have much confidence they would actually do what they said, I then called my credit union and asked if they could stop the transfer on their end. They said they couldn't, but to monitor my account over the next couple of days (this all happened on Friday afternoon) and see if the money got moved. If it did, I could come into the Credit Union and place a Fraudulent Transfer claim. Well, as of Monday morning, Cap 1 had taken $900 from my credit union checking account, so I filed the Fraudulent Transfer claim.
I have the money back in my checking account now, but I still seem to have a working Capital 1 account. They actually had the nerve to call my credit union to claim I was trying to pull something over on them!! I would avoid this company like the plague. Regardless how appealing their bonuses or rewards are, the risks and hassle are not worth it. I'm just glad this hasn't cost me any money, like most of the others who've posted here.
SANTA CLARA, CA, VIRGINIA -- I am having an issue in resolving fraudulent charges on my Capital One account, the card was issued under my name but I've never received it because of the mail tampering at my previous residency. So they've kept on sending me over limited balance each month. I've contacted them about fraudulent charges on the account; I have also sent them all the supporting documents including police report with the names of the suspects.
Ironically or not the people that I filed as main suspects of my identity theft, fraud, stolen checks and mail tampering happened to be involved with fraud with Capital One roughly a year ago before I moved to this particular residency **, San Francisco. Kenny ** from Customer Fraud Protection was the person who informed me about it over the phone. He also said..."We are working with you to resolve this matter..."
Without being a fraud investigator I can see that apparently the Filipino family that I was renting my room from, the landlord aka ** and her daughter aka Josephine ** at ** have been involved in the fraud with Capital One more than once including the case with me. From the police department in San Francisco I have received an unclear answer, on one hand they're saying that they will only start on investigation if the credit company will initiate it. On the other hand they said they won't really do any investigation unless it is 10,000 or more has been stolen from a person filing the report. It doesn't really make any sense to me.
However, I've let the Capital One know what the police have told me. In their turn, one of the Customer Fraud Protection representatives was arguing with me over the phone that "the police should have been doing an investigation by now." It sounded like what I am telling him is not exactly true and not how it works. I'd love to remind that I am just a customer that had fraudulent charges on the account and needed help in resolving it. Therefore I've contacted them to HELP ME. Instead I was getting blames for police not doing their job?
Anyway, after months of inconvenience and wait what I've received from Capital One was... "We found no indication of Fraud..." Huh? You know, I'd love to see those thieves in jail, I'd love to see them being caught and charged with an identity theft, mail tampering, fraudulent accounts opened in my name, checks cashing with the forgery of my name. However, for all I know police needed an initiation of the credit company that is in fact Capital One and they are in fact doing nothing to initiate it. What are bunch of **.
My balance is still high and I am not going to leave Capital One alone until they'll clear this situation out. I am not a police but as I am a magazine publisher I'll do everything in my power to inform publicity about high incompetence of Capital One to resolve Fraud matters and to protect their customers. Exactly 750,000 copies nationally will be sending out monthly. Until then I'll wait and see if Capital One will correct this situation and they'd better do it ASAP.
NO WHERE, TEXAS -- I know you all are frustrated about what has been taking place at Capital One. I just wanted to comment one a few things that I have read on here. If your interest rate (APR) is 28.15 or higher it is because you defaulted (went past due or over the limit) two times or more. This is Capital One's DEFAULT rate. Keep your account in good standings and you will not get that APR. There are times they can still lower your rate, even if you defaulted.
You were at a low fixed rate... Capital One made a business decision and sent out letters to everyone that was affected with the "Change In Terms". Please remember that the Senior Account Manager did not make this decision, most of the people who work there have been affected by this decision as well.
When calling into Capital One to check on your account or anything call 1-800-955-7070 and enter your account info and when it says to hit a prompt DON'T. It will bring you to a human faster than pressing prompts. As for the past due fees and or overlimit fees... Sometimes Capital One can credit back those fees IF the system lets them. If not, it isn't the retention agent's fault (keep that in mind).
As for closing your account... The account will not close until it is at a zero balance for 30 days after the account cycles with nothing getting charged to it. And they tell you in the DISCLOSURE when they do put it in a closing status CANCEL ANY CHARGES THAT ARE Automatically BILLED TO THE ACCOUNT. This means... If you have Payment Protection or Credit inform or any other charges like internet charges you will need to call them or anyone else that charges your account each month. If you don't and you put it in the closing status and they charge your account it WILL reopen it.
If your account is a rewards point account... Call the rewards department before closing your account because if you don't you will forfeit the points, cash or miles. Just an FYI also it takes 45 days to get them redeemed. The membership fees... They do have good benefits that come with that. Extended Warranty is a big one. And it is a very good thing. I will explain it...
If you go to the store and buy something that you can take out an extended warranty on... You don't have to take it at the store, Capital One will cover that extended warranty for one year. And as you know if you buy it at the store it will cost you 40-50.00 for that warranty, but Cap One you can use the extended warranty all you want with no extra charge.
Also rental car insurance... if you use your Cap One card to rent a car, your card also covers that. You can have the rep send you a copy of your benefit package when you call them. So then you can read all of it. Also the membership fee is in your terms and conditions when you got your card. BE NICE TO THE REPS. Because they are cardholders also and believe me they do understand how you feel and what you are going through. Thanks for reading this. Please remember the rep is there to help you!
Check this out. I got a suspicious-looking email this morning purporting to be from Capital One practically begging me to call 800-951-6951. I quote this email below in full. So... why do they want me to call so badly? I Googled 800-951-6951 and the first result was: CAPITAL ONE PHISHING SCAM ALERT from the NM Attorney General's Website. Strangely, the fourth result was: Capital One Customer Service: Contact Us Technical assistance with Website: 1-800-951-6951 on the real Capital One website (www.capitalone.com/contactus/additionalinfo.php - 42k -)
So now, let's see who picks up when you call the number. I called and (after the usual menu-surfing) an Indian-sounding person said, "Thank you for calling Capital One. Can I have your Social Security number please?" Wait a minute! My full, 9-digit SS number? I don't think so. I mumbled some digits and the rep said, "Thank you, sir. May I have your address please?" I told her my address. Hell, everyone knows my address. "Thank you, sir. May I have your date of birth?"
Uh-uh. She got really insistent here and said that she needed my DOB and home phone number. That's when I got nasty and said that I think she's phishing me and would get her in deep dooty if she didn't tell me who she was working for.
But wait! You ain't heard nothin' yet! She got spooked at that point and transferred me to a supervisor, an American sounding guy. I told him why I was calling and refused to tell him anything until he could prove that he was really a Capital One rep. He did! Based on the last 4 digits of my social he told me everything about my Capital One account. I was convinced.
I told him the whole story and he said that no CSR should be asking for the whole 9-digit SS#. I asked him if he could verify whether they had sent me the e-mail that started the whole thing and he couldn't. I asked him if he could resolve the fact that the same number appears on the NM AG's scam alert and on Capital One's website. He couldn't. I told him that it sounded kind of lame and he said that he would transfer me to his boss. After being on hold he came back on the line and said that his boss didn't want to talk to me and I should just forward the e-mail to firstname.lastname@example.org and they would "investigate" it. (I.E. I would never hear from them again.)
So what's going on? Here's my theory: I think the Indian outsourcing company is running a freelance ID theft operation. They were perhaps hired by Capital One to take calls, but are stealing the information they have been entrusted with to scam people. I think they sent me that email. It's all happened before: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1238329879743315970. The supervisor said that it couldn't be because they implement all sorts of "security measures". I don't believe it. Do you?
MARYLAND -- I don't know where they found the people who work for this bank, but they are without a doubt the most ignorant people I have ever encountered in such a setting. I never had any problems with Chevy Chase Bank, but as soon as Capital One took over, everything started to go wrong. The two most frustrating things are: 1. You have to have at least two and a half hours to kill if you need to go to a branch and speak to a person (who has that kind of time?). 2. In this modern age, they have no way to provide you with a statement except by mail.
I had the day off yesterday, so I went to a branch and waited and waited to see someone. I asked why I can't get access to my account through their online banking system. I had some little ghetto ass punks make fun of me and tell each other I must be stupid if I can't get it to work. One little kid just stood there playing with his crotch the whole time and looking at the guy next to him. The other one gave me all kinds of attitude, but couldn't answer a single question.
I then waited again to speak with a "specialist" who was no better. I also asked why my "incredible interest" account is not earning any interest despite meeting the necessary balance requirements. The "specialist" was able to view both my balance and the account minimums. However, she was completely incapable of comparing the two and determining which one was greater. She got so confused, she decided to just close the account and start a new one??
When she told me her intent, I said "NO! I will be back later to close my account and will not be opening any new ones with you." I then asked for my ID back and she refused to give it to me. For 10 minutes I demanded she return my license and she only did so after I indicated I would call the police.
As we all know, we are in some tough economic times. My Capital One bill was running a bit late and I was aware of this. I called them, trying to work out some kind of payment plan (I've never had to do this, being a long time customer). The woman I spoke with was very nice and allowed me to make two separate payments, one on the 15th and one on the 21st. I specifically told her that I needed it to be removed on the 21st because that's when I would get paid. She said that would be fine and the payments would post to my account within 24 hours. The first payment came out just as she said on the 15th.
The second however, didn't come out until the 27th, almost a full week after what I had requested. I received a bounced check fee (incredible considering I requested it to be debited) of $30. I got paid, in form of direct deposit to my bank on the 27th so I assumed that the extra money in my account was due to my recent raise and spent a bit. Now, Capital One's very rude representative is telling me that it's my fault, I should have known better and if I didn't want it to be taken out I shouldn't have allowed them to do it. I try to explain to him that if the money was removed when I requested, I wouldn't be having this issue.
He got very loud with me and I asked for a supervisor. The supervisor, who was also rude, huffed and puffed through my very calm demeanor and told me more or less to suck up the charges. It wasn't her fault, after all, that I wasn't told by HER REPRESENTATIVE that the money would not be debited but removed in the form of a check and not for another 6-7 days after the request. I have never had to make a payment plan on my bills so I think it is terrible to treat a customer this way. They were rude, frustrating and loud.
They put me on hold for an extremely long time, there was laughing in the background while the SUPERVISOR was having another conversation and all I was trying to do was a good customer. All I was asking for was an apology for this miscommunication and a credit of $29.00 on my next bill. They scoffed and continued to tell me about how I should better watch my finances. I agreed that while that may be true, if the money was removed when I asked, we wouldn't need to discuss this. I canceled my account and will not, ever, use Capital One's services (if you can call them that) ever again.