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Consumers Take Action Against Key Bank
Posted by ABrandt on 08/18/2010
CLEVELAND, OHIO -- For all of us who have been wrongly charged a overdraft fee by those Key Bank thieves along with their incompetent customer services reps, there may be justice coming for all of Key Bank customers. There is a class action lawsuit against Key Bank regarding their manipulation of charges to make more profit through overdraft fees. As some may not be aware, Wells Fargo had a similar lawsuit that just got settled in which the Judge ordered Wells Fargo to pay $230 million back to customers. I sincerely hope that the Wells Fargo settlement case sets a precedent for current and future litigation against banks such as the class action lawsuit against Key Bank.

To join the class action lawsuit against Key Bank regarding overdraft fee, click this link:
http://www.krclassaction.com/Default.aspx?Tabid=2357

To view info about the lawsuit and court documents click this link:
http://www.krclassaction.com/Default.aspx?Tabid=2358

My personal story with Key Bank regarding overdraft fees is similar to everyone's else experience it seems. But I'll go ahead and share: On July 28, 2010 my bank account was charged an overdraft fee of $37 even though my account balance was still POSITIVE $9.27. In June of 2010 I elected to NOT participate in Key Bank's overdraft protection services due to the $602.00 that I have paid year to date in overdraft fees. I contest the overdraft fees on the basis that the criteria for an overdraft charge was not met (ie: the account balance was not negative after the transaction cleared) and as such it violated my rights as a consumer due to the new consumer protections laws passed earlier this year prohibiting such business practices exhibited by Key Bank in this matter. On July 29, 2010 when I became aware of the bogus overdraft fee, I contacted Key Bank Customer Service not only once, but three times. All three times the customer service representatives declined to refund me my money and continued to argue that it was not a bank error (anyone with half a brain can look at the account statement and see that it is Key Bank's fault). That left me with no choice, so I filed a complaint with the Oregon Department of Justice, the BBB, and the OCC. Its been almost a month and I've yet to get my money back or contacted by Key Bank. However, due to Key Bank's blatant disregard for US financial consumer protection laws and failure to honor my request to opt out of their overdraft protection services, they need to be brought to justice. Whether that be by US government regulators or the US Justice Department. I am sure that I am not the only one out there who has been a victim of Key Bank's business practices that take advantage of uneducated customers (Key Bank really shot themselves in the foot this time though). I sincerely hope that this class action lawsuit forces Key Bank to re-evaluate their overdraft protection (dis)service and adhere to all current and future laws.

Sincerely, A Pissed Off Customer of Key Bank.
     
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Posted by leet60 on 2010-08-18:
While not addressing the OP's specific account, as he did indicate his account was in the positive with this occurrence, I will comment in general.

High to low posting order, while it may not have been specifically disclosed in Key Bank's account terms until recently, has been standard policy of almost all major banks for almost a decade. While at the outset, the appearance is that the banks use this as a tool to maximize profits from overdraft fees, there are other points to be considered.

1. If you truly keep an accurate account balance in a checkbook register the bank will never have an opportunity to charge an overdraft fee (again not directed at the OP). This is the basis of the problem for ALMOST every complaint about this.

2. In reality you have a choice if you don't want the bank to reorder - let the bank process all your nickle and dime transactions first, then have that check for your car payment or mortgage come in and be short by one cent. See how fast you find your car gone from the driveway. In theory the bank is saving you a LOT of grief by processing what are traditionally these large transactions which have a huge affect if not honored.

3. Most people who complain about this are simply trying to "float" transactions - deposit the paycheck Friday after 3 PM, spend like they won the lottery all weekend, then have the paycheck post the next business day at the bank.
Posted by yoke on 2010-08-18:
How much was the debit/check?
Posted by leet60 on 2010-08-18:
I also wanted to mention, that in class action lawsuits as this one is, only the lawyers get any signifigant amount of the award. On average, with the exception of the party starting the class, for most class action lawsuits the average payout for a member of the class is less than $100.00.
Posted by ABrandt on 2010-08-19:
Hey, no complaints from me. That $100 will cover the bogus overdraft charge they refuse to refund! In my particular case there was no reason for Key Bank to charge me an overdraft fee, just came out of the blue. But what ticked me off is that they refused to refund it. All they had to do was credit my account back for $37. I never knew that banks gave consumers the option on how banks are to process the transactions, I've known for awhile that banks process high to low and if given the option would have it the other way around, cause it ends up being the $2 transaction for a coffee that overdraws the account.I would rather pay $37 overdraft fee for a $900 mortgage payment over a $37 fee for a $2 coffee. If banks were to adopt that kind of policy, they would receive less criticism and less complaints. I'm sure that banks created overdraft program with good intentions but it hits people the hardest who can barely afford to make ends meet as is, without having to pay an extra $37 for a "service".
Posted by CrazyRedHead on 2010-08-19:
If you opt out of OD fees it doesn't stop all debit transactions that come in on an under funded account. It only covers certain transactions. I had the particulars explained to me by the rep that removed the opt in thing and I also read it in the literature that comes with it. I also had to agree that I understood it before they would complete the request. I agree with Leet that if you keep a checking register that should eliminate about 95% of the OD complaints. I fell into the category of sleepy stupidity as to why I OD'd my account. My mistake could happen to anyone and caused my account to go astray.
Posted by Anonymous on 2010-08-19:
"let the bank process all your nickle and dime transactions first, then have that check for your car payment or mortgage come in and be short by one cent."

The recent WF ruling totally debunks that line of thought. Below is a link to the ruling. It's a real eye opener to all the OD propaganda.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/business/20100811-wells.pdf
Posted by Anonymous on 2010-08-19:
"In reality you have a choice if you don't want the bank to reorder - let the bank process all your nickle and dime transactions first, then have that check for your car payment or mortgage come in and be short by one cent. See how fast you find your car gone from the driveway. In theory the bank is saving you a LOT of grief by processing what are traditionally these large transactions which have a huge affect if not honored."

Actually, in reality, the banks that reorder transactions are making themselves a LOT of money (somewhere around 40 BILLION/yr) with the false pretense that they are doing this to save customers a LOT of grief by processing those "big" checks first. Funny how those same big banks that claim to care so much about their customers are the ones that are harassing them to opt in to to the OD protection...if they truly cared about their customers, wouldn't they be doing the exact opposite??
Posted by CaptainSpaulding on 2010-08-19:
They don't call Key Bank "Fee Bank" for nothing!
Posted by ABrandt on 2010-08-19:
Yes, I know that opting out doesn't exempt me from all OD fees and opting out only is for debit/atm transactions. What amazes me is that some banks are charging $50 on new accounts as a sign up fee for the overdraft protection services. Who in their right mind would agree to that? Its charging a fee for a fee service, it blows my mind. Banks are obviously doing everything they can to keep revenue up and ripping of customers. But charging $50 for the overdraft protection services just gives consumers more ammo and one more thing to complain about. If banks wanted less complaints they should adopt favorable consumer policies that don't require government action to fix.
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Abusive Overdraft Policies
Posted by Norm K on 05/07/2009
REDMOND, WASHINGTON -- I found the My3cents.com Web site while searching for information about overdraft policies employed by Key Bank. As I read many of the posted reviews I found that what I have encountered as a bank customer was strikingly similar to many other depositor’s experience. That realization was at once both troubling and encouraging. It was troubling because I did not realize how wide spread abusive funds availability policies were; it was encouraging because I understood that I was not alone on this issue. That realization was also infuriating when one considers bank customers are currently being charged by banks on two fronts: first as customer who are charged egregious fees and second as taxpayers to bail out the very banks who are charging them as depositors.
When reviewing the issues I also concluded that characterizing those who have experienced the negative and often expensive effects of abusive funds availability and overdraft policy as irresponsible miscreants who cannot balance their check book is patently false. If fact, many who have had negative experiences with abusive overdraft fees are victims of overdraft policies crafted to allow banks to ignore deposit credits while first running all check and debit card charges in order of greatest to least. This maximizes overdraft events and related overdraft fees.

The processing order practices appear to be allowed by exceptions in Federal Reserve Board Regulation CC. Once a customer has a history of overdrafts, that regulation apparently allows banks to ignore required funds availability requirements, which often creates future cascades of unanticipated and unwarranted overdraft events. It also appears that customers are not informed by the bank that their accounts are being processed under different rules that create increasing opportunity for the bank to maximize fees charged. I believe that this practice creates a separate class of bank customers who do not enjoy the benefits of deposit recognition other depositors enjoy.

Having been a financial analyst for the past thirty years and a consumer advocate for fifteen, I began additional research. The results were quite encouraging. A few of the positive facts that I discovered are as follows:

1. In November 2008 the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) published an extensive report concerning automated bank overdraft programs. The report describes many of the problems that customers have reported in My3cents.com reviews. The report also makes it clear that such bank practices are widespread and potentially effect up to 74 percent of all bank accounts. Finally, the FDIC report also discloses that under current bank policies overdraft fees charged to customers can amount to thousands of percent APR on the amount paid by the bank.

2. In December 2008 a policy analyst group published a report that disclosed total overdraft fees charged by banks were $37 billion per year but net profit of the banks during a recent year was only $19 billion. This raises an important political issue: How can we as taxpayers be bailing financial institutions with hundreds of billions of our money, when those same apparently institutions cannot operate as a profitable going concern without gouging customers through abusive fees?

3. In March 2009 House Bill 1456 was sponsored during the 111th Congress. That bill would specifically prohibit order of processing debits and manipulating recognition of deposits to maximize overdraft events and fees. If found that congressional bill to be encouraging for two reasons: first, it recognizes that complaints registered by customers about overdraft charges are entirely legitimate; and second, if passed into law the bill would prohibit many of the current bank practices that result in unwarranted and abusive overdraft charges.

I still feel the sting of hundreds of dollars at a time being taken from my account by abusive bank practices. At the same time, however, I am also hopeful that oversight reports by FDIC and proposed legislative reform by Congress can change those practices in the future. To that end I encourage folks to continue sharing their experiences in public forums.
     
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Posted by kisa64 on 2009-05-07:
The bottom line is, never spend more than what you deposit and never spend a deposit until you know it's cleared and available. It really is that simple. If you do that, they can't charge you OD fees.


I borrow this quote from poster "justcuz", as this is succinct and wise advice.
Posted by Anonymous on 2009-05-07:
The poster is correct in that depositors who have a history of overdraft abuse will automatically get extended holds on their deposits.. It is a bank's way of mitigating potential loss.

That being said, the history of overdrafts is created by the customer not the bank. If (as noted above) you don't draw on funds that you don't have available to you, it doesn't matter what order items are posted in, ever. If you don't toe the line, these big banks will exercise their rights to slam you with fees. So the question is, why put yourself in that position?
Posted by Norm K on 2009-05-07:
kisa64: Your comment makes sense on the surface, but it is not really that simple. When one deposits cash or money order to cover projected charges, has an available balance indicated online, and then gets charged OD fees that simplistic response doe not apply. It also does not apply where some customers have deposit availability honored by the bank and others do not.
Posted by Norm K on 2009-05-07:
KenPopCorn: Holding some "target customers" available funds while others enjoy more advantageous availability is not a proper way for banks to mitigate risk. Which is why FDIC reported in November 2008 that complaints about automated overdraft programs are 12%, whereas complaints about other overdraft programs average about 1%. In addition, it is not true that one can never have an overdraft ever if they deposit more than they spend. One can deposit a money order or cash and still have overdrafts. There are numerous instances where Key Bank shows online beginning and ending credit balance on the same day, but customers experience still overdraft charges. the bank "legs out" credits to create debit overdraft events, then adds the credits in after charges have been made. How can one have a recognized credit balance at begin and end of the same day but still be overdrawn? The answer is that banks manipulate how they recognize deposits to maximize overdraft fees. That is a practice that would be prohibited under Congressional bill H.R. 1456, which is mentioned in the above review.
Posted by Anonymous on 2009-05-07:
Norm, the fallacy of your argument is assuming that you can make a deposit and cover a debit or a check that you issued before the funds were in the account. Aside from the fact that this is illegal, the deposit can never beat the electronic memo post of the debit item, and often will not beat a check which is being cleared electronically.

In your example, money orders do not require immediate availability, and probably will not get it. Cash becomes immediately available when it is posted, which is at night when everything else gets posted. Since Key Bank (among others) processes debits before credits, your cash deposit isn't going to prevent an overdraft on a check that is in today's inclearing. As I noted above, you are obliged to have *available* funds before you transact. You can take a chance and try to cover it, but as you have seen, you will rarely win this race.

One last note: the rules about Funds Availability are set by federal law. While a bank may choose to be more liberal than required, they cannot exceed the guidelines. Further, the bank's policy must be given to you when you open the account, and any time you request a copy. It also has to be posted in the branch.

When you open an account anywhere, and this includes credit unions, you may be assured that you never HAVE to pay an overdraft fee, but if you allow it to happen, they will seize the opportunity and collect every fee that they possibly can. It's just the way it is now.
Posted by Norm K on 2009-05-07:
KenPopCorn: Thank you for your added comment. It the alleged fallacy you cite raises an several important issues. First among them is that the order of processing -- from greatest to least -- can and will create overdrafts that would not have occurred for checks or debits that were made well after the fact of a sufficient deposit. Bank of America recently settled a class action on that issue for $35 million; Wachovia, SunTrust and Wells Fargo now have class actions pending on that issue. Moreover, such practices are specifically prohibited by H.R. 1456 as sponsored by Rep. Maloney (D-NY). In addition, Consumers Union (Consumer Reports) and other highly credible consumer advocacy groups have recently filed extensive briefs on the subject with regulatory oversight bodies concerning proposed changes to Federal Reserve Regulations. Do you contend that members of Congress, consumer advocacy groups, trial lawyers who bring cases to settlement to return some of the money customers have lost, and regulatory oversight agencies are incorrect on this important and timely subject?

As to cash having immediate availability please Check Federal Reserve Regulation CC 229.10 (a). Cash has the same availability under that section as a Cashier' Check or Money Order (often Teller's Check)under 229.10(c)(v): NEXT business day. So why is cash a good funds deposit immediately for some customers but not for others? Your statement "While a bank may choose to be more liberal than required, they cannot exceed the guidelines" is also an important admission: what customers the bank chooses to be more "liberal" with and those it does not creates the separate class of customers I wrote about in the review.

However, your response does provide on important confirmation: "Since Key Bank . . . processes debits before credits". that becomes a money machine for banks at depositor's expense: precisely as state, withhold recognition of deposits while running all debits in the account. What would happen if customers had the ability to require that all debits to their account be ignored when calculating available balance?

Again, thanks for your added comment. We are flushing out some of the important issues with this dialog. I appreciate that.
Posted by Anonymous on 2009-05-07:
A couple of things Norm, the suit that BoA settled was because they did not properly disclose their processing order, not the order itself. The other suits are similar, and none had had huge success.

I reiterate, the order of posting can never, ever, cause an overdraft if your account has sufficient available funds. It is mathematically impossible.

The legislation that you reference has no bearing at all to your problem. That particular piece of legislation proposes that a consumer specifically agree to a transaction that is going to incur a fee. This is anything new; if your account today has overdraft protection and you withdraw more than your balance at an ATM, you get a message saying that continuing the transaction may incur a fee, and you have to agree. The legislation proposes to extend this to debit card transactions. Since the system, as it exists today has no capability to allow a consumer to agree to a fee, the bank will merely decline the transaction. Think about that when you roll that big carriage of food up to the register and hand over your card. Some people will embrace this. My personal bias is that is one more way of allowing government to intrude into our lives so that some people won't have to bear the personal responsibility of maintaining an account like a mature adult. Just MHO.
Posted by Anonymous on 2009-05-07:
And one more thing... sorry, I forgot to address the part of the legislation that deals with posting order. In few words: it's a red herring. Neither checks nor debit transactions arrive at a bank piecemeal during the day, each arrives once a day in one huge batch. So if I am a bank, and I recieve a transmission with 50,000 debits in it, and six of them are yours, what order did they hit the bank? Similar for checks. But guess what? If the account has available funds, it doesn't matter.
Posted by kisa64 on 2009-05-08:
You are right, KenPopcorn. Bottom line, if your account has available funds, it won't matter what order the debits come in. You must base your debits on what you have available in your account at the moment you make the debit, not based on a deposit you made in which the funds are not yet available or one you are about to run to the bank to make. I speak from experience, after two years of continuous overdraft fees, once I followed this practice, I have not had one overdraft fee. I really do believe that it is as simple as that.
Posted by Norm K on 2009-05-08:
KenPopCorn and Kisa64: Thank you very much for your added comments. However, at this point it appears the conversation is laden with polarized views and circular logic, on which the two of you agree. However, discussion of this important topic is about public information, not one or the other of us "winning" a spat on this Web site.

First, it is not mathematically possible to begin the banking day with a credit balance, deposit a money order for several thousand dollars, end the banking day with a higher credit balance, yet be charged for several overdrafts. Both the debits and credits are recognized the same day. Such events are only possible by manipulating the order of processing. It matters not whether a customer deposits cash, money order or their first born; when banks run all debits before considering any credits that can and will occur. the problem in amplified by banks choosing to process debits from greatest to least order. For example, if you read the other postings about key Bank there are numerous complaints on the subject and many of those address cash deposits. To my mind, the practice is fundamentally deceptive and misleading. It becomes more so when bank managers inform a customers the OD charges are due to "unavailable funds," when in fact the charges are due to a choice by the bank as to how they process accounts to artificially manipulate increased OD charges. There are huge disclosure issues inherent in this troubling phenomenon.

I have written two papers on the subject to date and a third is in progress. Those papers have been sent and receipt acknowledged by Elizabeth Warren, chair of the TARP Congressional Oversight Panel. Again, this is about public information and folks can make up their own mind once they are informed of important and relevant facts.

Finally, we experience a curious phenomenon: bankers holding out their right hand for alms from taxpayers while dipping their left elbow-deep in consumer-taxpayer accounts for often-unwarranted OD fees to the tune of $37 billion during 2008. At the same time banks apparently cannot turn an honest profit from their core business of lending and have precipitated one of the greatest liquidity crises in the history of our nation (where reduced liquidity also increases OD fees). And the regulations (Reg. CC) that govern funds availability are created by the same Federal Reserve that is currently handing billions to banks. I believe that incestuous and unseemly circumstance needs to change.

Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate the dialog. Best always and be well.
Posted by Anonymous on 2009-05-08:
Norm... you deposited a check. Checks do not get (necessarily) immediate credit. Overdrafts occur when you don't have sufficient AVAILABLE funds. And again, you are attempting to cover checks or debits which were transacted when you did not have funds. Therein lies the rub.
Posted by Norm K on 2009-05-08:
KenPopcorn: Your facts are incorrect, your conclusions are therefore false. Please note that my response above clearly identified the deposit as a money order. Why do you incorrectly and falsely characterize the deposit as a check (2nd day or 5th day availability under Reg. CC depending on local out out of town) when it is stated to be a money order?

The deposits to an account that I write about as an exemplar in my papers were Teller's Checks (money order) with a bank as drawee. Under Reg. CC 229.10 (c)(v) such deposits enjoy the same availability as cash (229.10(a).

It is also clear from several other complaints on My3cents that customers depositing cash experience similar OD fees. Unwarranted OD charges are a direct result of bank choices as to how they recognize credits and order of processing for debits. H.R. 1456 clearly identifies that as true because members of Congress have addressed the issue in pending legislation. At the same time there are huge and sustaining disclosure issues.

finally, your statement "Checks do not get (necessarily) immediate credit" illustrates the fact that such practices by the bank create a unique and separate class of customers who do not receive the same deposit recognition as other customers enjoy.

Thanks again for expressing your views. However, asserting false information about the nature of a deposit in an exemplar account, apparently to "win" a point, does not contribute to meaningful dialog. Customers get enough of that when talking to their bank about unwarranted OD fees.
Posted by Anonymous on 2009-05-08:
I mean no offense but I find it very odd that Norm can keep track of banking regulations, and financial lingo but cannot do the math to keep a positive balance in an account to keep debit transactions from incurring an overdraft fee. Norm, you are splitting hairs and trying to overpower people with words and run on paragraphs. You are putting a spin on facts so they will suit your needs. This is not helpful. You mention that expressing our views here does not contribute to meaningful dialog.... I can honestly say I havent gotten anything meaningful out of your posts either.
Posted by Anonymous on 2009-05-08:
Norm, a Money Order is NOT a Teller's Check. They are legally very distinct instruments, and they do not necessarily qualify for immediate availability. Do you not read the bazillions of posts about the poor souls who get money orders in the mail, deposit them and wire out funds, only to find that the money order was fraudulent?

I know you think I am picking on you, Norm, but you can't seem to grasp that the source of your problem is the inability to cover transactions that you made when you did not have available funds in the account to cover them. There are clearly many more user-friendly banks than Key Bank, but you are likely to encounter the same problems even there.
Posted by Norm K on 2009-05-08:
KenPopCorn: If what you say about a Teller's check is true then why were those funds credited the same day that the debits were processed and OD charges applied to the exemplar account? Again, you are incorrect -- customers of Key Bank can and will begin and end the same business day with a credit balance but be charged OD fees. It matters naught what the nature of the deposit is under those conditions when the bank acknowledges them as good funds for available balance on the same day. That is not due to customer's failing but clearly caused by how the bank chooses to recognize deposits while it is processing debits. In this case the representative customer clearly had more than sufficient funds deposited to KeyBank and Acknowledged as good funds by the bank on the same day. Why dump on the customer as a financial miscreant to "justify" charging fees, when the bank knows it has credits the funds on the same day?
Posted by Norm K on 2009-05-08:
JohnInSoCal: Why do you assume facts that clearly are not in evidence to respond? Indeed, it is a clear ability to do the math that illustrates the major and sustaining problems with bank debit processing and deposit recognition.

My view is that your opinion of what bank customers seem to grasp is only relevant insofar as it clearly illustrates the deeply frustrating problems that depositors experience when attempting to address their account with bank employees and branch managers.

If you haven't "gotten anything meaningful" from these posts then why do you comment? It seems to me that you would simply move on to what you find to be meaningful.

Dumping on bank customers and those who post about bank problems simply illustrates how some banks treat their customers while begging for taxpayers to bail them out. As of yesterday's stress test reports KeyBank apparently needs to raise $1.8 billion in capital to stay in business. Should customers finance that too, while being demeaned by those begging for their money?

There is something fundamentally flawed about that circumstance. Perhaps it is possible that we need to set aside the issue of whether some banks are too big to fail and address a new question: "Are some banks too arrogant to be safe?"

Thanks for your comment, however dumping on bank customers in general, as well as those who post about manipulative processing policy, adds little or nothing to meaningful dialog.

The two papers I have written have been submitted to and receipt acknowledged by the TARP Congressional Panel and members of Congress. Perhaps we can get to more substantive issues in that forum.
Posted by madconsumer on 2009-05-08:
one more time someone wants to blame the bank for their inability to maintain a proper bank account.

sue em.
Posted by BokiBean on 2009-05-08:
Nice post, norm. Its been a long time but some people actually do remember when banks didn't try to shove their hands down their customer's pockets to rob them of fees they are not entitled to. I remember when banks were a lot more user friendly.

Come over to the credit union side...there are many of them that have a much more customer oriented manifesto.
Posted by Norm K on 2009-05-08:
Bokibean: Thanks for your supportive thoughts. I appreciate that.
Posted by Norm K on 2009-05-08:
MadConsumer: What customer inability are you referring to, when the question at issue is about manipulative deposit recognition and debit processing by banks? You also mentioned "sue em". So should banks now be suing their customers, to enforce the bank's choice as to how customer's accounts are processed and charged OD fees? That would be an interesting phenomenon: "Dear Customer: Here's service on our lawsuit on top of picking your pocket!" I trust that is not what you intended to say.
Posted by BokiBean on 2009-05-08:
Anytime, Norm. Heck, I remember when banks would reward customers who opened new accounts with small appliances and stuff like that. Now they make new customers jump through hoops for the privelege of getting robbed by them. ;)
Posted by Anonymous on 2009-05-08:
How anybody can defend these big national banks and their consumer unfriendly and deceptive ways is beyond me.
Posted by jhartman24 on 2009-05-08:
Norm: Don't worry all these guys supporting the banks are probable unemployed by the banks they work for or soon will be. The great thing is I made the right choice over a year ago and left keyBank. This new bank doesn't charge me overdrafts after I make a deposit and it is available for a "WEEK" before I write a check on it. Whats even better is Key is finally getting the message. The had the nerve to call me the other day and offer a GPS if I would switch back. I explained that I could afford to buy my own with the money I now save from erroneous overdraft fees. Even though this does not replace the hundreds of dollars they have stolen from me I do feel a little bit more vindicated.

Unfortunately I do not have much faith in our government to correct the issues. They have been bought and paid for by these institutions. Between them and the CC we are doomed. On the bright side if we let the banking system continue to ruin the nation they will all disappear and we can start over again. It will be tough for everyone but I will enjoy watching those who have used corruption to live the high life be brought to there knees..... I will survive and who knows I may even flip them a penny when I see them begging on the street..... Sorry if I seem cynical but it is high time the people of this country take control close your credit card accounts and burn your debit cards "USE CASH".... If everyone gave there plastic back today the banks would get the clue....
Posted by Anonymous on 2009-05-08:
Norm, I have not assumed anything. Do not force words or make assumptions in your post on my behalf or try to tell me or other M3C members what you believe I think about the banking industry. What I did say is that I believe that you have not said anything meaningful in your responses to those posting on your review. I did find some value in what others posted in response to your review. No place in my post did I say I agree with any of the banking policies in place. With that said if the terms are disclosed we are accountable for knowing what the they are.

Since you have the gift of gab and like to talk in circles you can feel free to have the last word. I've made my point.
Posted by jktshff1 on 2009-05-08:
"banging head against wall"
Posted by Anonymous on 2009-05-08:
LOL Don't hurt yourself jkt. We need you.
Posted by Norm K on 2009-05-08:
Crabman: Thank you very much for your comment. I appreciate it. I philosophically agree with your apparent views about defending banks at the present time. However, I also note that if we are to pull out of the current economic mess we are in we also need a profitable banking sector that provides increased liquidity to consumers and small business owners. That assumes banks are focused on their core business of lending money and operating honestly while doing so, of course.

As I noted in my posting, bank overdraft fees are reportedly $37 billion for 2008 and profits were $19 billion. Which implies that they cannot make a profit from their core business of responsible lending. One of my greatest personal concerns is that large national banks have apparently become so focused on crafting pretenses to charge overwhelming fees that they may have lost sight of their core business. That is formula that creates situations like the current economic meltdown.

It is also of concern to me that current TARP and other bailout conditions may place small regional banks at an economic disadvantage. For example, the recent increase in FDIC deposits to assist with funding round 2 of the bailout falls more heavily on smaller regional banks that have received little if any TARP funding.

Why should depositors, consumers, and taxpayers pay hundreds of billions to keep in business large national banks that have demonstrated to date colossal ineptitude in their core business of lending and cannot make a profit without manipulating deposits to pile on abusive fees? Of equal importance, why should TARP compound that problem by putting small regional banks that are necessarily more responsive to local customer needs at a competitive disadvantage?
Posted by Anonymous on 2009-05-08:
Why is right to come on to somebody's review and post basically smack talk but it's wrong for the OP to respond? I've never understood that about this place. Some of the comments on here can not be construed as anything other than insulting. I thought the review it's self was very well written and the OP comments in general were respectful. Just because somebody has a different point of view is no reason to get ugly or dismissive. Eh, I guess that's just how it is on my3cents.
Posted by Norm K on 2009-05-08:
JHartman: Thanks for your comment. It certainly is true that many who were previously employed in banking, stock brokerage and mortgage financing are now finding themselves unemployed. That they are also in that situation due to an economic melt down they helped create has a certain ironic justice.

But a larger picture also presents itself: why take joy in another's job loss or economic hardship? It seems to me that we as a people have the ability to come together and create an honest financial system that works for everyone. To get that done perhaps the best solution is to let large national banks continue destroy their own customer base, and thereby eliminate themselves from a truly competitive market place. Those who enter the market vacuum created will hopefully understand that there's good and honest money to be made in core lending business.

As an added advantage, that change would also provide employment for many hardworking and honest bank employees who are not involved in managing or running abusive overdraft systems.
Posted by Norm K on 2009-05-08:
JohnInSoCal and Jktshff1: what a marvelous thing the internet can be! In the case of the two of you it apparently allows soul mates to meet once again. Rather than banging your heads against the wall on issues normal folks comprehend immediately perhaps you would find head butts with each other to be more productive and enjoyable. Best Always and Be Well.
Posted by jktshff1 on 2009-05-08:
Crabby, you are right, the post was well written.
I think it's a willingness to see it from another perspective that causes some of the problem. You've seen that on other reviews. I think that by the time most op's have gotten here, they are already po'd enough that minds get closed to further discussion and other views. They post here more to vent than anything else and when an opposing view is placed, it adds fuel to the fire. Of course, no one on here would badmouth anyone just for the heck of it!!
JMHO
But what the heck, ya live, ya learn, ya die and forget it all!!LOL
Posted by jktshff1 on 2009-05-08:
Crabby, need I say more? I was typing when norm gave his well written response.
Posted by Norm K on 2009-05-08:
Crabman: thanks for adding your most recent thought.

Your latest comment that addressed insulting comments is important. Mostly so because those who engage in that behavior richly illustrate what many bank customers confront when they question Key Bank policy or overdraft charges.

Apparently some bankers have not yet grasped the idea that talking down to, dumping on, or not providing honest disclosure to those whom they rely on to make a living is counterproductive and self-defeating in the end.
Posted by Norm K on 2009-05-08:
JKTSHFF1: Why do you extend your negative comments to all folks who post on this subject by unfavorably stereotyping them in the third person as "They post here more to vent than anything else," and then add a negative label of po'd and closed minded, "they are already po'd enough that minds get closed"?

It seems to me that you're reaching the motor-boat stage . . . butt, butt, butt . . .!
Posted by jktshff1 on 2009-05-08:
I have posted nothing negative toward you, matter of fact I agreed with much of what you said.
But you seem to be doing a pretty good job of proving my point without any help.
Posted by BokiBean on 2009-05-08:
Crabman, sometimes you have a beautiful way of putting forth what's on your mind. I mean that sincerely, at times you are nothing short of eloquent.
Posted by corpbankhater on 2010-02-25:
I don't think some of you who are advocating for the bank are fully understanding the issue here. Let me give a couple of examples to clarify. Let's say you have a checking account with an available balance of $500. You swipe your card for $100, $35, $8, $17, and $40, equaling total debits of $200. Then an e-check clears for $400. You have now spent $100 more than your available balance. Your bank charges $35 per overdraft. Let's say that the merchants submit your debits in the order you swiped. You have overdrafted $100 + $35 overdraft fee so your available balance is now -$135. Now all of us can agree that this is correct, you know banks charge an od fee, so there is no arguement. You spent more Han you had. Now let's talk about what these banks are actually doing. Manipulating how transactions post in order to boost revenue. Instead of posting in order submitted, your bank posts highest to lowest. $400, $100, $40, $35, $17, $8. You have still overdrafted by $100. However the first two transactions that posted have already used your entire available balance. You now have 4 overdrafts as opposed to one. The bank charges $35 PER overdraft. So instead of you owing the bank the extra $100 you spent plus $35, you owe them the $100 you spent plus $35 + $35 + $35 + $35. The bank has manipulated your transactions in such a way as to make an extra $105 dollars off of you. If you spend more than you have, you should incur a penalty for that. However, the bank should not be allowed to manipulate the order in which you spent your money to make more profit off of you. That is stealing, plain and simple. It is corporate banks "legally" extorting people who do not have high bankers salaries. People who are working hard and still barely making ends meat. No matter how much ANYBODY tries to justify what these banks are doing, it is still wrong, and if you argue on they're behalf you are wrong. The order in which your transactions post, cannot stop you from getting an overdraft fee If you spend more than you have, but it can have an effect on how many you get, try to prove me wrong...I dare you!
Posted by goduke on 2010-02-25:
The problem is, bankhater, that you have in fact, overdrafted. It's a hard argument to say "I know I took more money than I was supposed to, but I'm going to complaint about the manner in which the penalty is applied." It's like complaining about how hight the ticket was for speeding.

Not defending the bank at all. I think banks will maximize their profits at every turn. But if you don't allow the account to go into the negative, you never put yourself in a position to have the bank maximize the NSF potential. Ever.
Posted by Anonymous on 2010-02-25:
"$500. You swipe your card for $100, $35, $8, $17, and $40, equaling total debits of $200. Then an e-check clears for $400. You have now spent $100 more than your available balance."

And, if you had taken in account that you only actually had $100 dollars to begin with considering that e-check hadn't cleared yet and could clear at any time... you wouldn't have spent all that money in the first place.
That's were people, mostly, run into problems. They look at their available balance, not taking in account for any check or auto debit that might clear the account that night, and spend money. And they way these banks post transactions from highest to smallest, that's where they get into trouble. This highest to smallest transaction posting is not something new. It's been happening for quite some time now.
There's plenty of places out there, that *don't* do it that way... you just have to shop around and ask questions to see if they do or don't.
But, if you know how the system works, there's steps you can take so a bank can't and won't get your money.
Posted by Anonymous on 2010-02-25:
(BA) BKat.
Posted by corpbankhater on 2010-02-26:
Apparently you all did not see where I said that I was in agreement that you overdrafted and should pay a penalty for that. However you should pay the penalty on the charge you overdrafted your account with, in this case the $400. The bank should not be able to manipulate the order in which your transactions were processed.

Here is an example of what just happened to me with TDBANK. I have two checking accounts with them. However I did not open the account with TD...I opened it with Commerce before they moved. Not one time in the almost two years I had a Commerce Bank account did I overdraft my account, Not Once! TD takes over and all of a sudden I'm overdrafted with $250 or more in fees just before every payday. So I'm with a bank for two years with 0 overdrafts and all of a sudden a big corporate Bank buys them out and I'm overdrafted every pay period? So all of a sudden after two years of great money management, I am horrible with money for 5 months? I don't think so! There is no such thing as coincidence, I'm very sorry to say!

Here is my most recent problem with them. As I said, two checking accounts, one with nearly $3k in it all times and one with the $100 minimum that I use for daily purchases. When I make a purchase, I transfer money between accounts to cover the charges. Yesterday I look at my account, and what a surprise, my available balance is again in the negative. However my actual balance still positive. So I tranfer money between accounts (that are liked together mind you so the transactions will be covered when they clear. Were they? YES, my account never went into the negative. So again, I transfer $200 because I know my car insurance will be coming out. I look at my balance, $315. I look the next day...$280 in overdraft fees! But wait, how can this happen, my account never once went into the negative, until they hit me for the first $105 in od fees and then processed my $173 insurance payment. Now every transaction that posts after those is a negative transaction so I'm hit for another $70, and another $105 totaling $280 in overdraft fees. Still don't believe they are stealing money? Okay, I did the math, subtracting all transactions since my last direct deposit of $600 and change, witch was three hundred dollars short I might add, can you guess why? Anyways I did all the math subtracting all debits, adding all credits but leaving out the overdraft fees and came up with $56 still available. Clearly, it was they're FRAUDULENT od fees that put me negative in the first place! Okay maybe I'm making all this up to make the banks look bad...well I'll prove it...



History between the banking dates of 02/12/2010 and 02/25/2010
To sort by a column, click on its heading.

Date Type Description Debit Credit Check Image
02/25/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
FEDEX KINKO S 1263 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $1.23    
02/25/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
MARKET TO MARKET COL FALLS CHURCH *VA  $9.02    
02/25/2010 ATM DDA WITHDRAW *9877
15809JEFFERSON DA WOODBRIDGE *VA  $10.00    
02/25/2010 ATM DDA WITHDRAW *9877
15809JEFFERSON DA WOODBRIDGE *VA  $10.00    
02/25/2010 FEE OVERDRAFT PD  $105.00    
02/25/2010 CREDIT Online Xfer
Transfer from CK 3990542064    $219.00  
02/25/2010 CREDIT HANDLING CHG REVERSAL    $70.00  
02/25/2010 CREDIT HANDLING CHG REVERSAL    $105.00  
02/25/2010 CREDIT HANDLING CHG REVERSAL    $105.00  
02/24/2010 POS DDA PURCHASE *9877
EXXONMOBIL WOODBRID *VA  $4.78    
02/24/2010 POS DDA PURCHASE *9877
WAWA 680 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $5.55    
02/24/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
MARKET TO MARKET COL FALLS CHURCH *VA  $9.49    
02/24/2010 FEE OVERDRAFT PD  $70.00    
02/23/2010 FEE SERVICE CHARGE  $15.00    
02/23/2010 POS DDA PURCHASE *9877
WAWA 680 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $8.59    
02/23/2010 POS DDA PURCHASE *9877
WAL WAL MART STORE 742 DUMFRIES *VA  $42.00    
02/23/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
THI VICTORIA INSURANCE 800 888 8424 *OH  $173.60    
02/23/2010 FEE OVERDRAFT PD  $105.00    
02/23/2010 CREDIT Online Xfer
Transfer from CK 3990542064    $100.00  
02/22/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
MARKET TO MARKET COL FALLS CHURCH *VA  $3.24    
02/22/2010 POS DDA PURCHASE *9877
WAWA 680 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $3.90    
02/22/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
MARKET TO MARKET COL FALLS CHURCH *VA  $7.04    
02/22/2010 POS DDA PURCHASE *9877
WAWA 680 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $7.06    
02/22/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
WAWA 680 00006809 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $35.28    
02/22/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
WEBMEMHELP COM 8133560557 KNA  $44.93    
02/22/2010 CREDIT Online Xfer
Transfer from CK 3990542064    $200.00  
02/19/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
MARKET TO MARKET COL FALLS CHURCH *VA  $3.45    
02/19/2010 POS DDA PURCHASE *9877
WAWA 680 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $10.12    
02/19/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
JUSTANSWER EXPERTS MYJABILL COM *CA  $28.00    
02/18/2010 POS DDA PURCHASE *9877
WAWA 680 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $6.61    
02/17/2010 POS DDA PURCHASE *9877
WAWA 680 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $7.40    
02/17/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
MCDONALD S F10270 DUMFRIES *VA  $14.08    
02/16/2010 POS DDA PURCHASE *9877
CVS 06852 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $4.87    
02/16/2010 POS DDA PURCHASE *9877
WAWA 680 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $5.39    
02/16/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
AMC POTOMAC MI06003644 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $6.00    
02/16/2010 POS DDA PURCHASE *9877
WAL WAL MART STORE 510 DUMFRIES *VA  $6.23    
02/16/2010 POS DDA PURCHASE *9877
WAWA 680 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $8.59    
02/16/2010 POS DDA PURCHASE *9877
CHEVRON PETROLEUM MARK WOODBRIDGE *VA  $8.61    
02/16/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
NFI WWW NETFLIX COM CC NETFLIX COM *CA  $9.44    
02/16/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
AMC POTOMAC MI06003644 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $11.50    
02/16/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
MCDONALD S F12704 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $12.21    
02/16/2010 POS DDA PURCHASE *9877
WAWA 680 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $18.20    
02/16/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
CCBILLEU COM 1888596927 VALETTA MALT MLT  $19.95    
02/16/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
DOMINOS PIZZA 4357Q09 111 111 1111 *VA  $23.17    
02/16/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
AMC POTOMAC MI06003644 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $30.00    
02/16/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
WAWA 680 00006809 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $30.50    
02/16/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
ONLINE TAXES 800 7553520 *NY  $39.97    
02/16/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
PARTY CITY OF WOODBRIDGE WOODBRIDGE *VA  $42.99    
02/16/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
RENT A CENTER 2346 800 422 8186 *VA  $56.68    
02/16/2010 DEBIT CARD VISA DDA PUR
CHILIS SW GRILL 8 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $57.00    
02/16/2010 POS DDA PURCHASE *9877
SHOPPERS FOOD PHARM 26 DALE CITY *VA  $67.62    
02/16/2010 CREDIT VISA DDA REF
AMC POTOMAC MI06003644 WOODBRIDGE *VA    $15.00  
02/12/2010 POS DDA PURCHASE *9877
WAWA 680 WOODBRIDGE *VA  $11.08    
02/12/2010 DIRECTDEP FRONTIER SYSTEMS DIRECT DEP    $911.53  
To Export this information choose a file format:

There are all my transactions from the day my paycheck went in. I don't think the balances transfered over, so if you still don't believe me do the math yourself, and don't forget to pay attention to which are debits and which are credits to my account. You tell me where I went negative before they conviently charged a bogus $105 to my account...
Posted by corpbankhater on 2010-02-26:
Oh, by the way, the $911 direct depost left me with a balance of $641.74, so do the math from that balance. Also the $200 and the $100 transactions were both transfers I made from my other TD account to this one, so they are positive credits, not debits.
Posted by Anonymous on 2010-02-26:
CBH, have you figured out yet that you cannot transfer to cover your debits AFTER you do them? As soon as you swipe that card you have created the overdraft because you have committed the bank to paying that debit. Think of how much money you'd save if you made the transfers ahead of time.
Posted by corpbankhater on 2010-02-26:
KP, you are exactly right, as soon as you swipe, the bank is COMITTED to paying that fund. But have they actually payed it? The answer is no, they won't pay until the merchant submits the transaction... When you deposit a check, are the funds instantly available? No they aren't they are available when the check CLEARS. So why should I be responsible for a fee as long as I funds to cover them BEFORE a transaction CLEARS? You can't expect people to pay you a fee before you ACTUALLY overdraft. There is a huge difference between AVAILABLE balance and ACTUAL balance. What are Pending transactions? Transactions that haven't yet posted, or CLEARED. Say my available balance is -$20 but my actual balance is $90. That would mean I have $110 in PENDING transactions. But I still physically have $90 in my account. So as long as my ACTUAL balance is $110 before those PENDING transactions CLEAR, I haven't ACTUALLY overdrafted. That would be like charging you a late fee on your car payment for paying it the day it's due. Does that make sense? No. Again look at my account history I posted...the balances aren't on there but my starting balance was $641.74. Take the time and do the math. Tell me where I ACTUALLY overdrafted BEFORE they charged me any fees. You will see that the first $105 od fee is what eventually caused me to go negative in the first place. Those transactions were simply copy and pasted from my banks website. No edits were made by me what so ever.
Posted by Anonymous on 2010-02-26:
Two words:
check register.
Or one word:
Quicken
or
brain
Posted by corpbankhater on 2010-02-26:
Hey genious, what order do you write down your purchases in your Check Register? In the order you spend them right? Well the banks are manipulating the order in which your transactions post in order to maximize overdraft fees. Not to mention, I do keep a register which i fill out using my receipts when I get home everyday. So being as I don't keep my register on me, for various reasons that make perfect sense, I check my account on my iPhone, or by calling for balance updates while I'm out running around. So IF I there is an oversight, which can happen since I am human, I may not notice it until I get home and balance my register, or check my account again. If one is made, I immediately transfer funds from my larger account with the same bank...BEFORE they actually post, when they are only PENDING!

As far as my brain goes, it works just fine, obviously, being as I seem to be one of the VERY FEW people on this thread who understand the difference between a PENDING TRANSACTION and a POSTED (cleared) TRANSACTION. Not to mention, AVAILABLE BALANCE vs. ACTUAL BALANCE. Maybe you should read all of my posts and try to wrap your brain around some logic!
Posted by PepperElf on 2010-02-26:
Now I'm thinking Dr Horrible.

" ' Hey genius'. Wow, sarcasm that's original!"

maybe i should work on my evil laugh some more...
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How Key takes your money
Posted by KeyBankSux on 09/28/2006
MAINE -- I have been doing business with Key since 1993, and generally have had a small balance on my account (under $1k usually) due to the fact that we are one of many struggling small families. In this last week key has broken the final straw. It began with a posting of an unnamed "service charge" of $10.00 when we were in particularly tight financial waters. When asked what the fee was we were told it was tol hold on to our bank statement, which could not be delivered. Interesting point since last months got here fine and we havn't moved. However that $10 dropped the account into the negative, and service charges became the name of the game, seven of them to be exact. When I learned our account was negative I put $100 in the account. By then (next day) they had charged me an additional $94.50 in overdraft charges. THat put us to $-.33, which created another overdraft charge. So the next day I have to borrow $200 to bring the account back up. The balance showed well over $100 available so I put $20 gas into my truck and got dinner. The next morning what do I find? Three more overdraft charges, the reason? Key's computers showed the withdrawls ahead of the deposit so they said it was "fair" to charge another $94.50. Total of overdraft charges $220.50 in three days. When I asked about overdraft protection a month ago they told me I couldn't get it, and now I see why.

Please folks, be careful of Key. They are no longer a friendly local bank, and they won't hesitate to fleece your meager savings to meet their quarterly profit goals, then lie to you with a straight face and tell you it's your fault.
     
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Posted by Anonymous on 2006-09-28:
If you can show them that you indeed, have not moved, I believe that they will back off the incorrect fee, and the ensuing charges that it caused. It would be pretty hard for any bank to defend them.

I would reccommend that you visit your branch manager in person to discuss the problem. If he or she proves not to be helpful, politely ask them for their immediate supervisor's name and number as you will be filing a complaint with the Comptroller of the Currency (their regulator) and you would like to be sure and mention both the manager and the supervisor by name in the complaint.

If this doesn't work, by all means file the complaint. Nationally chartered banks, like Key, *hate* it when you bring the feds into their operations.
Posted by rhondam718732 on 2006-09-28:
I would fight this one! If the truly charged you $10 to hold your return mail that's OBSCENE. Dump them. And they owe you every penny back.
Posted by CaptainSpaulding on 2006-09-29:
Why do you think that they call KeyBank "FeeBank"?
Posted by KeyBankSux on 2006-09-29:
The latest on this is I put in $500 I borrowed from my grandmother. Two days after putting that money in I look online, and sure enough another 3 overdraft charges, this time with NO NEGATIVE BALANCE. I called Key to complain and got a woman who was abusive, condescending, and outright hostile towards my plight. After having her lecture me for 20 minutes on how overdrafts occur (and yeah, I understand that) I told her I wasn't going to take this from a bank and that I was pulling my account and filing a complaint.

I think the worst part was the on hold message saying "Key is committed to customer service." Makes you want to drive a stake through their hearts doesn't it?
Posted by Such Tsouris! on 2006-09-29:
Your story is so typical of KeyBank. Overdraft Recovery has absolutely no idea what it's doing and doesn't communicate with anyone else in the bank. Very similar things have happened to me.

Key Bank Overdraft Recovery finally agreed to strike off fees from my checking account, because they were charged in error. But now, a year and a half later, they have sent the fees they said I didn't owe to a collections agency. This is only the latest in the years of nightmares I have had dealing with KeyBank. No one should ever, EVER have anything to do with them.
Posted by arghh on 2007-01-05:
Two weeks ago my balance dropped into -$2. Since then I have been charged +$200. The first time it was a situation where they could have charged me the small check first so I would only get one OD. Another time they sucked my savings dry which didn't cover the new charges so they threw on another OD. Now I had an automatic transfer from my checking to my savings each month that put me into the negative. Of course when I got this I was under the impression that it would be overridden if it would put me into the negative. My options are to start a new account and "take my business elseware", complain to a congress man, Dennis Kuchinich who is running for Pres!?!, sue or ( and this is really where I am leaning) keep my account set up another one else where and then when I have $400 in this rip off bank, USbank, take it all out and make $400 in charges. If you are reading this lets coordinate. Lets get as many people to do this at the same time as possible.
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Unbelievable Theft by Overdraft Charges
Posted by Jmyers on 05/05/2011
KeyBank charged me $123.00 on a $5.00 overdraft. I opened this account and then found out that they (1) sent bills and charged my account before the bills were sent and then overdrafted my account; (2) as a result I tried to close the account because they charged me overdraft charges for each bill and would not waive the charges; (3) I was told I could not close my account early unless I paid an early closure fee! So I left the account open until six months later when I wrote a check for $75 to close the account. I was incorrect that the balance had $75 but instead had $70; thus the $5.00 overdraft. They charged me an initial overdraft charge of $37, then $28.50 for the next three months. They called me on some anonymous number and did not leave any message until I finally answered the anonymous call and discovered just today that they charged me $123.00 on the $5.00 overdraft. They will not waive any of the fees. I just went to KeyBank and deposited the full amount. What a rip off. DO NOT USE KEYBANK~!!!!!!
     
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Posted by Anonymous on 2011-05-05:
banks will do anything to screw people over.
Posted by jmyers on 2011-05-05:
That's a fact. I've been banking for 45 years with Wells Fargo's predecessor, BofA and US, all of which handle accounts at least logically. But KeyBank, everywhichway you turn, they are charging you. Seems like they make up the rules as they go and you are not aware of them.....
Posted by trmn8r on 2011-05-05:
If you got into a negative balance because of the first overdraft, the bank will nick you on a regular basis until the overdraft is resolved. At my bank it was every three days or so.
Posted by CrazyRedHead on 2011-05-07:
At BOA if you overdraft you get hit with the fee then if you don't settle that fee within 5 days they hit you with a second. I would argue that this isn't the banks fault but I'm to tired to do so, I'll just let someone else do tit.
Posted by MDM on 2011-06-29:
Every bank will inform you how/and why you overdrafted..more then likely they sent you a notice to your online banking clearly stating how items posted to your account...if you read it, its pretty easy to understand...
Posted by Don't Be A Mule on 2011-11-25:
$123 worth of service was not delivered, period. Just because the rules are scribbled out in print somewhere doesn't mean it's ok. Nowhere close. It's an arbitrary fee that takes advantage of people with low funds. It's hilarious to me that anybody comes to the defense of banks on the topic of overdraft fees. Really? Why do banks get a free pass to demolish bad spenders? Maybe that money should go to charity?
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Key Bank Theft
Posted by Jhartman24 on 10/04/2007
CLEVELAND, OHIO -- Before you read all the replies note that several of these individuals seem to post to many of the KeyBank complaints and they all seem to have star ratings on them and follow the keybank indoctrination of saying the same thing over and over. Hmmmm Paid employees perhaps????

First I will explain I have several accounts this info reflects most about my Business. This is the letter I have emailed to the local media, OCC and Key bank. I want everyone to know they are rip-offs. I have forwarded this page link to these agencies also. Maybe someone will listen.

It has become a never ending battle to keep an accurate record of my bank accounts. I feel that putting my money in my account is no better than putting it in a slot machine. The odds are against me. What ticks me off the most is when I make the slightest mistake it cost me dearly. When I follow the bank policy I still don’t have a leg to stand on. When the bank makes a mistake that I can prove then I have to fight tooth and nail to just get back my money and they pay no penalties. I will list a few issues I have had in the past year and yes I will provide a detailed report to the OCC but I believe they are not consumer friendly and are probably bought and paid for by the financial industry.

Back in March or April of last year I received a decent size check from an insurance company. I deposited this check on a Wednesday and it appeared in my account as being available Thursday and Friday. On Saturday it was taken back out “I am glad I didn’t write anything on it”. When I called the bank to explain they told me they put a hold on the money “They had to make sure the check was good and they would get their money”. The ironic thing about this is that they could tell me during that same phone call the exact date and time it would be available in my account “Friday at midnight 5 days latter” .

Several weeks ago “and I have had this happen before” I deposited a check “from a client I always do business with” on a Saturday. The check cleared on Monday and showed it to be available. Several items were taken out against this on that same day “I travel a lot and the bank loves to hold my transactions to catch my account low” As you can see below the next day I was hit with 10 overdraft charges. I have sent emails requesting this be corrected and I received one correspondence in the mail which if you read it carefully you will see I am in no wrong “and it is a book to say the least I would like to title it “How to rip off your clients” . They lied about the date I deposited the check and I verified with my client when there bank withdrew the funds from their account. To date I got a pathetic “as a good will gesture we will refund 5 of these overdraft but we are not in the wrong”

09/18/2007 Serv Chg TIER 2 OVERDRAFT ITEM CHARGE
38.00 839.53
09/18/2007 Serv Chg TIER 2 OVERDRAFT ITEM CHARGE
38.00 877.53
09/18/2007 Serv Chg TIER 2 OVERDRAFT ITEM CHARGE
38.00 915.53
09/18/2007 Serv Chg TIER 2 OVERDRAFT ITEM CHARGE
38.00 953.53
09/18/2007 Serv Chg TIER 2 OVERDRAFT ITEM CHARGE
38.00 991.53
09/18/2007 Serv Chg TIER 2 OVERDRAFT ITEM CHARGE
38.00 1,029.53
09/18/2007 Serv Chg TIER 2 OVERDRAFT ITEM CHARGE
38.00 1,067.53
09/18/2007 Serv Chg TIER 2 OVERDRAFT ITEM CHARGE
38.00 1,105.53
09/18/2007 Serv Chg TIER 2 OVERDRAFT ITEM CHARGE
38.00 1,143.53
09/18/2007 Serv Chg TIER 2 OVERDRAFT ITEM CHARGE
38.00 1,181.53
09/18/2007 Reversal EASY SAVINGS AVIS REBATE NY 29.91 1,219.53
09/17/2007 Debit Card POS MAC USPS 5.94 1,189.62
09/17/2007 Debit Card PARADIES-RENO RENO NV 7.35 1,195.56
09/17/2007 Debit Card HMSHOST-PHX-AIR Q63 PHOENIX AZ 9.06 1,202.91
09/17/2007 Debit Card CONTINEN AUSTIN TX 15.00 1,211.97
09/17/2007 Debit Card APCOA CLEVELAND HOPKIN CLEVELAND OH 60.00 1,226.97
09/17/2007 Debit Card CIRCLE K 71.04 1,286.97
09/17/2007 ATM ATM KEY 100.00 1,358.01
09/17/2007 Debit Card BEST WESTERN AIRPORT P RENO NV 116.63 1,458.01
09/17/2007 Debit Card OMNI HOTELS AUSTIN S. AUSTIN TX 182.85 1,574.64
09/17/2007 Debit Card CONTINEN 00521534855446 AUSTIN TX 416.40 1,757.49
09/17/2007 Debit Card AVIS RENT-A-CAR 1 PHOENIX AZ 598.15 2,173.89
09/17/2007 Check CHECK # 600.01 2,772.04
09/17/2007 Deposit ATM 2,000.00 3,372.05


Today I open my account and see they have double charged me for several items see below email I sent earlier to the same person I have been trying to get to correct my other issue.

Dear Janette:

Jeanette M Piatek
Executive Offices of Key Corp
Office of the President
Ph# 800 625 xxxx
Fax# 216 357 xxxx
KeyBankFax# (216)357xxxx8

I want you to take a very close look at the information I have copied and pasted from my account this AM. As you can see there is a reason I do not trust or believe anything you try and shovel at me. I call this a “Tiear2 Over Drawing charge” and for each occurrence it is a $380 charge. Please redeposit all the money you have, once again stole from my account and $1900 for the charges I have imposed.



Cleared Activity
10/03/2007 Debit Card MCDONALD'S F14723 Q17 AMHERST VA 4.79 90.86
10/03/2007 Debit Card MCDONALD'S F14723 Q17 AMHERST VA 4.79 95.65
10/03/2007 Debit Card EXXONMOBIL 42038240 BEAVER WV 53.18 100.44
10/03/2007 Debit Card EXXONMOBIL 42038240 BEAVER WV 53.18 153.62
10/03/2007 Debit Card MARATHON OIL 156018Q96 ATWATER OH 63.48 206.80
10/03/2007 Debit Card CHEVRON 0173012 WHITE SULPHURWV 70.58 270.28
10/03/2007 Debit Card CHEVRON 0173012 WHITE SULPHURWV 70.58 340.86
10/03/2007 Bill Pay BILL PAY: 643.85 411.44
10/03/2007 Debit Card xxxxx 7.25 1,055.29
10/03/2007 Debit Card xxxxx 7.25 1,062.54
10/03/2007 Debit Card SHONEY'S OF LE14711Q68 LEWISBURG WV 11.11 1,069.79
10/03/2007 Debit Card SHONEY'S OF LE14711Q68 LEWISBURG WV 11.11 1,080.90



P.S One more piece of evidence to provide the OCC with.


They did finally correct the double charges but that is all and I have received no word from them.

I also received a call from them a little while back for a late payment on a loan I have with them “personal account” They called me then demanded I give them my full SSN before they would tell me anything. I had no clue at the time why they were calling and therefore told them I do not give my full SSN or Account number over the phone if I didn’t call them and didn’t know who I was speaking with. I filed a complaint with the Ohio AG and it was referred to the OCC by their office “AG Complaint # 339757” .

I also believe “I don’t have all the information yet” that they are sitting on a refund that I received from a car rental company “it might prevent them from catching my account low again”

I know it would be easy to say just changes banks “I have started this process”. The problem is I am one of thousands of their customers. So my question is how much money are they stealing on a daily basses and why isn’t there any oversight. Someone should be facing criminal charges for this because I believe it is intentional. If you do a search on the net like “Keybank sucks or Keybank Rippoff” you will see there are a number of people who are complaining. Some justice needs to be done. If it requires me to show my account I will.

In all fairness I have CC the bank on this I want them to know I mean business and will not stop until I see some action not only for myself but for all the consumers out there…….
     
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Posted by Anonymous on 2007-10-04:
You are living proof that not everyone should be allowed to have a checking account. You would do yourself a service to open a savings account for depositing your checks, then withdraw as money orders when you need them. You could go to Europe on the money you will save on NSF fees.
Posted by Anonymous on 2007-10-04:
What is a 'teft' ?
Posted by Anonymous on 2007-10-04:
I just don't get what is so hard about keeping track of your balance. I've banked with several banks in my life and the only time I've ever incurred NSF fees is when I was young and inexperienced and wasn't paying attention and keeping track of my transactions. Do banks make errors? Sure, but I honestly don't think they intentionally want their customers to go overdrawn just to collect more fees. Anymore, a lot of banks are asking customers to take their business elsewhere if they have too many overdrafts, so why would this be an intentional act? Call me naive, but I don't think this is some conspiracy.
Posted by jhartman24 on 2007-10-05:
Normally I don’t reply to such comments but I will point out a couple facts to those who are so good at taking care of their accounts and spell checking. Put all your money in key bank then come back in 6 months and tell me you had no problems. Second I would like to address the fact that banks are offering free checking and free accounts. Hum do the math they use to charge for this so how do they make up the lost income. Get rid of real people, charge ex-sorbent fees and yes make the system so convoluted that you will screw up no matter how great you think you are at your check register. Sorry I don’t have a multimillion dollar company that I can just stuff cash in the bank I am a real American who like most struggle day to day to make a living dealing with constant issues with corporations who try to screw you. By the way I have been to Europe a few times, nice but very costly especially the extra fees the bank charges for rate exchange.
Do some research on bank profits on NSF http://www.americanbanker.com/$nocookies$/usb_article.html?id=20070827FDVXID2L
Posted by steve101 on 2007-10-05:
Stop using a debit card. Pay cash for small items under 20 dollars. Use a credit card for larger items.
If you move to another bank and continue to use a debit or check card you will have the same situation.
Posted by Anonymous on 2007-10-05:
Sorry that I am not more sympathetic, but you are complaining about fees that you wouldn't be paying if you were responsible with your account. As Steve says, stop using your debit card, use cash or checks, and keep a register. I am not rich either, but I don't pay NSF fees.
Posted by CrazyRedHead on 2007-10-05:
When you deposited the checks were they showing up in the pending column or in the available column? Usually stuff that shows up in the pending column will disappear after a certain amount of time then show up days later in the available column. Also most large checks don't clear the same day you deposit them, they usually hold them for awhile. When you came upon the date that they said that the funds were available did you call them to verify if the funds are really available? Do you keep a checking register, properly?

From looking at the fees for overdrafts, it looks like you have overdrafted many times before, usually 38.00 is the highest fee for overdrafts, you have to overdraft so many times to get to that amount.

It is hard to go by the info that you provided, it doesn't show your history or the full story, just your side of it.
Posted by Anonymous on 2007-10-05:
It is well enough that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.
-Henry Ford
Posted by Anonymous on 2007-10-05:
We have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks. Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are U.S. government institutions. They are not government institutions. They are private credit monopolies; domestic swindlers, rich and predatory money lenders which prey up on the people of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign customers. The Federal Reserve Banks are the agents of the foreign central banks. The truth is the Federal Reserve Board has usurped the Government of the United States by the arrogant credit monopoly which operates the Federal Reserve Board.
-75th Congressional Record 12595-12603
Posted by Anonymous on 2007-10-05:
Here is something I do to help simplify my banking, especially when I'm traveling. I use my credit card. I always pay the balance before it is due or when I return home so as not to incur interest. That way if you make a deposit that the bank holds, you don't have to worry about it. Just be sure to make the payment to the credit card. You have to be diligent about this. I do mine on-line so I always know what the balance is. I might add, I am meticulous with my bank records too. But, I don't want to try to second guess what the bank will do. BTW, I've banked at WAMU for over 10 years with no problems. I know others have had the exact opposite experience. One time I called them and asked if they substract debits before adding credits and they said no. They add credits first, at the end of the banking day, then subtract debits. I haven't had any deposits held either. My daughter did once because the funds were in HK dollars, but besides that it has never happened. Maybe you should consider changing banks and start over. Consumers Bank is supposed to be pretty good too, I've heard (if you have one in your area). You just have to find a consumer friendly bank or credit union--people that will work with you a little.
Posted by jhartman24 on 2007-10-05:
Maybe I need to explain a little more. I probably have more transactions in a month then most people have in a year. This is a small business account. I don’t get a biweekly check, in fact if you ever had the experience of invoicing you would know that it is a crap shoot when you may get paid. You can’t tell your clients sorry you’re a week or month behind I won’t do business with you, If we took that approach there would be no business. The next thing to shoot down the almighty check register theory. It is obvious that those who swear by this, do not make many trips more than 20 miles from their home. Let me explain. When you rent a car and use a debit card they automatically add additional charge to your card until you return it and this may be a week before this is refunded. If you get a hotel room it is a 50 50 if they add this deposit charge and it’s a 50 50 if they disclose it to you. I don’t worry about this at 1 AM in the morning when I have to be at the clients 4 hours later. Did you know that a gas pumps can also put a charge above and beyond what you actual pumped so a $30 gas fill up could show up as $75. How about all those companies who just automatically withdraw from your account, like software companies for renewals, and rental companies. I had a hotel charge me $1K because they mixed my card with another contractor who stayed there often. The banks don’t refund quickly or without a fight. So please don’t school me on check register until you really know what you are talking about. Why do I use a debit card well credit cards have high interest, so why should I give away more of my hard earned money I would pay cash any day before I have to line someone’s pocket. As for the availability yes the check was available and it showed it on my account before the overdrafts and I also checked with the bank the check was drawn on and it cleared before I was slammed. If you look at the info I provided my account never went negative but yet I still received these charges. Why the tier two well this isn’t the first time I have had this same issue I have beat it once "it took some persistence" and I will again. I just want to inform the public of the un-ethical bank practices. Banks are not none profit organizations and I have no issue with them making money but be ethical.
Posted by jhartman24 on 2007-10-05:
diance:
Thanks for the advice but the one issue with switching banks is that if you are a business banks and credit unions as a rule put you on a 6+ month probation. They will hold ever check you deposit for a period of 10 to 14 days no matter if they receive the funds or not. It makes no difference of my past record or my clients past record this is a rule. Why don’t I just put a chunk of cash in the bank well you have to have a chunk first that doesn’t go to the BWC, Job and Family Services, Taxes, SS, payroll and the list goes on… I prefer to run my business as a cash flow basses as much as possible. Is this smart, well if I purchase something it is mine and the banks don’t have their greedy little hands on it.
.
Posted by killerklown on 2007-10-07:
Please learn the proper use of punctuation "and quotation marks" before you post again.
Posted by Anonymous on 2007-10-07:
KillerKlown, WHY?
Posted by CrazyRedHead on 2007-10-08:
If you pay off your credit card balance in full every month you don't have to pay the interest. I also travel and use a hotel once in a while and always use my credit card for that, also the same goes for gas and that leaves my checking account open. I haven't had to pay interest on my credit card in almost 2 years since I pay it off every month. I have never encountered the extra amount when I get gas. I don't know your situation (and I don't want to), but I do some of the same things as you and I don't have any trouble with them and I have been with BOA for almost 20 years.
Posted by jhartman24 on 2007-10-08:
Lidman Thanks!
I prefer not to waste my time with such arrogance.
Red: Small flaw in the Credit card theory. You still have to pay them and how is that done? Well you have to have a bank account. When the bank uses un-ethical practices it doesn’t care who you’re paying. So regardless of who or how I make the payment if they choose to screw me well they try.
Bottom line, my account had the funds and they charged me NSF charges. They claim the money was on hold. Online banking showed funds available. The bank the check was written on showed the transaction took place before withdraws occurred. Never was my account negative “even after they robbed me with erroneous NSF charges”. Key bank has avoided giving me there recorded time that they received the funds from the deposit along with other information. They can’t even get there policy straight on emails.
This is what I received via email when I first filed the complaint.
“Please be advised that due to Federal Privacy Regulations, we are unable to address your concerns through email communication.”
Yet on another attempt they fully disclosed all information about my account and transactions via email.
I have head three different version of how this could happen and yet they cannot provide sufficient evidence to back any of them.
The local manager used the words “Well it could have been”. Excuse me!!!! Sorry but this is an institution that should have accurate record keeping and the ability to tell me instantly what happened. I might as well give my funds to some organized crime. At least I would be forewarned when they were going to break my legs.
Even the State of Ohio has found KeyBank mishandling there funds http://ohio15th.blogspot.com/2007_02_01_archive.html.
Another good article http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/business/2007/09/14/ddn091407keyjobs.html
Posted by Anonymous on 2007-10-08:
jhartman24--Thank you for the explanation--appreciate it. Sounds like it would be nearly impossible to change banks at this point. I hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction.
Posted by Miss Misery on 2008-02-23:
I really appreciate your post because I realized I am not alone with my concerns over Keybanks charges.
I closed my Keybank account last November (2007) and for some reason paypal.com attempted to access the Keybank account when I had purchased something online. It was not that big a deal - I finally contacted Paypal and they had (for some reason) used information that was five years old rather than the current info.
I went to Keybank to ensure my account was closed, showed them the correspondence from Paypal accepting it was their mistake and paid for $40.00 charge (I owed money because Keybank bounced back the charge to Paypal). I wasn't pleased about this, but glad that I at least 'caught it'.
Then I started getting calls from Keybank. I owe close to $300.00 they say.
Apparently Paypal tried to access my closed Keybank account three times a day for four days, so I was being charged for everytime.
Even worse is that when they call me, they start this preamble, to ensure we are talking to the right person we need your birthdate and SIN - I don't think so! I just hang up. So 10 to 1 my credit rating is going down as I type this...
Posted by NY on 2013-01-10:
The first few times I was over drafted by key bank, I assumed it was me not keeping track of things. Then it happened a few more times and I realized they post things to your account any way that it can cause an overdraft. I've deposited checks that have POSTED AS CLEARED, then find out the funds are not available for 10 days. I've had items post, disappear and reappear so that it will overdraft even after I've made a deposit. 3 times I have called to ask about charges and the customer service rep seems surprised by the order of charges posted or is unable to give me a straight answer on a charge or overdraft fee. When I go into a branch in person they are as helpful as possible-to my face, but dealing with the bank when they don't have to look you in the eye to lie to you is quite different. My SIL worked as a teller there and quit after a year because of their lunacy, she advises everyone to stay away. I would absolutely agree.
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$40 cup of coffee
Posted by Jing18 on 05/12/2010
First, my account was low because my direct deposit didn't go through. Not knowing this because, unlike some banks, Key refuses to send an automated email called a low balance alert. Anyway, thinking I had money I made a few small purchases on Saturday and Sunday. On Wed. morning I get a call that I need to put $$ in my account. When I looked it up online I had 8 $37 OD charges on the same day. It appears they used the old trick of taking the larger amount out first and continued. Why they waited 3 days on some is beyond me. A few charges were under $5. When I asked for a reversal of the 8 OD fees they just said it's your responsibility but we will take off 3 fees. I asked why they kept accepting the debit card transactions when the account was overdrawn and they gave a lame story about MasterCard and merchants not sending them in. There is no reason in this electronic age that they could not take notice and refuse to honor charges. Key bank sucks - I should have closed my accounts a long time ago.
     
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Posted by Anonymous on 2010-05-12:
I have direct deposit too, but I always double check it's deposited before spending...better to be safe than sorry.

I'm not sure why all banks don't decline debit card transactions that aren't going to go through, but I think in July they will be...someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Posted by goduke on 2010-05-12:
49 days til july 1!
Posted by spiderman2 on 2010-05-12:
49 days until everyone is complaining that their cards don't work!
I would like to know why your direct deposit didn't go through? Was it the bank's fault of the fault of your employer? That is what would make me mad. You didn't check your balance and that is your responsibility. I have banked at several different banks and a credit union and never have I been offered to be notified if my bank account was low on funds.
Posted by FlShopper on 2010-05-12:
THe email alerts are not always the most reliable way to keep tabs on your account. I get one everyday at work from Citibank, where we (the company for whom I work)have an account. I keep the register up-to-date in Quickbooks and check it against anything that has come through the bank every day. But most of the time, the email alerts show a different balance than what's shown on the website.
The best way to always be certain about what's in the account is to enter every single transaction in the register. And always double check that direct deposits have made their way into your account. You can't be taken by surprise that way.
Posted by old fart on 2010-05-12:
I go on line everyday and balance my checkbook to the penny, it's just not that difficult...
Posted by Anonymous on 2010-05-12:
oldfart, that's because all you have is a penny!
Posted by old fart on 2010-05-12:
You're right Sheriff but by gosh my checkbook balances!
Posted by Anonymous on 2010-05-13:
I check the balance the day that my direct deposit is scheduled, just to insure that my company didn't make an error, because it does happen. But how is that the banks fault? Check your balance before you spend. Take some responsibility in life and stop blaming "the man".
Posted by MRM on 2010-05-13:
Justice, I, too, check my bank online after I have received my direct deposit. I notice that I have loss a couple of dollars from my paycheck.
Posted by Starlord on 2010-05-13:
I don't see where Key Bank has done anything wrong here. The OP states that Key Bank won't send law balance alerts, like some banks. You notice they did not say all other banks. Low Balance Alerts are not that common. Ultimately, the OP has the responsibility to be sure they have money before spending it. We receive all of our money via direct deposit, and Crystal will not spend a cent until she verifies that the funds are there. It is not that difficult, as OF said to check your balance. I think Key was more than gracious in forgiving three of the OD charges.
Posted by Obsfucation on 2010-05-13:
One more consideration about the alerts: They are not instantaneous. The bank's systems has a schedule where they check for certain conditions, and then send an email. If they check for low balance twice a day, and you draw down the account immediately after a check, you have almost 12 hours before it will be checked again, and then add on the time it takes for the email to reach you, and then get read.
Posted by yoke on 2010-05-30:
What did the bank do wrong? The OP is the one that spent money before checking to see if the direct deposit went in. Yes, the bank should have declined the purchases (July 1 can't come fast enough), but it was the OP's job to make sure the funds were there.
Posted by Backlash2 on 2010-06-29:
I'm not sure why all banks don't decline debit card transactions that aren't going to go through.. because this is the way banks see to make extra money and man they make millions off customers this way.
Posted by NY on 2013-01-10:
I am reposting the last part of this from another complaint. I would like to point out that going online to check your account with Key Bank is USELESS as indicated in my examples below. During an inquiry with a customer service rep I asked why my online account showed that all deposits had cleared and that all funds were available, but when I went to pay for my gas- that I had already pumped- my card was declined! I sat almost 20 minutes in my car on the phone with key bank trying to get enough funds to cover the gas available with a very pissed off store clerk glaring at me through the window. On multiple occassions the funds available on my online account have not matched or have been rearranged after being "cleared" so that it will overdraft.
Repost: The first few times I was over drafted by key bank, I assumed it was me not keeping track of things. Then it happened a few more times and I realized they post things to your account any way that it can cause an overdraft. I've deposited checks that have POSTED AS CLEARED, then find out the funds are not available for 10 days. I've had items post, disappear and reappear so that it will overdraft even after I've made a deposit. 3 times I have called to ask about charges and the customer service rep seems surprised by the order of charges posted or is unable to give me a straight answer on a charge or overdraft fee. When I go into a branch in person they are as helpful as possible-to my face, but dealing with the bank when they don't have to look you in the eye to lie to you is quite different. My SIL worked as a teller there and quit after a year because of their lunacy, she advises everyone to stay away. I would absolutely agree.
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3 overdraft fees for the same 53 cents !!!! DON'T BANK AT KEY
Posted by Himpro45 on 04/01/2011
CLEVELAND, OHIO -- This is the most immoral situation I have ever encounted.

I overdrafted my account by. 53cent by using my debit card. Key accessed $39.00 for this and another $39.00 after it cleared. According to a Key bank supervisor I was charged as the debit pended and when it cleared. I have been a customer of theirs for 30 years!!! Of course I complained and was refunded only to get ANOTHER $39.00 fee because I then deposited a check and withdrew some cash (well within what was immediately available) but wait, because my two prior overdrafts were credited to me in a way that was advantageous to Key, they decided to hit me again and tell me basically, "we already went well above what we could have done for you"
All of this from the pitbull manager Paulma ext 57388. If she comes on the line just hang up and get someone else... she is the type that "likes" authority or at least of pitiful attempt at have some!
     
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Posted by Cwazychicken on 2011-04-01:
Thats awful. My bank (Not key) has a rule if you go under a dollar, they will not fee you. Sometimes 5, depending on the bank location. They work with me, i have once gone over 1 penny. Thats awful they would charge 39.00 for 53 cents.

As far as the other fees, next time wait til its available before you withdrawl. Sometimes banks take their time on purpose, sounds like they did. But my bank always gets it in the very same day, if not immediate. Sorry you had such bad luck with your bank.
Posted by ChuhBaca on 2011-04-01:
That's horrible! If you think they may be violating some sort of regulation, you can submit a complaint to the office of the Comptroller. Maybe call back to speak with Paulma and ask HER the name and contact info of the agency by whom Key Bank is regulated so you can place a complaint. Likely she will refuse to tell you. If she does, then you have the contact info. If she doesn't include that in your complaint.

Big banking is horrible and partially to blame for the state of the economy. They don't care about their customers because they don't need them. They're "too big to fail" and can get bailout money.
My advice would be to find a good credit union. When I met my wife, I was with a CU and she was with First Bank. When she switched to my credit union, our financial situation instantly improved as well as our banking became much less stressful! We no longer had a big bank trying to play "gotcha" with what little money we had at the time. The difference was unbelievable.
Posted by trmn8r on 2011-04-01:
I believe, and people here will correct me if I am wrong, that with debits and checks if you opt out of overdraft protection this can't happen.

I can't understand from your description why you were charged the second overdraft fee when something "cleared". I also can't tell what happened after they apparently credited the first two fees, that caused a third fee.

What I *do* know it that banks usually refund one overdraft, and sometimes multiple ones on the *first incident* only. This explains why they wouldn't refund the third one, but I can't there is insufficent information to know why it was charged.

I also believe that someone who uses debit cards for purchases and who does not keep a register to know their balance should not opt in for OD protection. It is far to easy to make a mistake like the first one. I use a checking account with a linked interest bearing account at PNC, that covers ODs with no fee whatsoever. Talk about piece of mind.
Posted by trmn8r on 2011-04-01:
I just saw ChuhBaca's comment. A similar theme is a change was made that gave the customer piece of mind. I don't use a credit union, ChuhBaca does. Whatever you can find that works for you.
Posted by ChuhBaca on 2011-04-02:
My Credit Union acts similar to your account. I have a savings account from which funds are automatically transferred to keep my checking from being negative.
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Overdraft Charge Nightmare
Posted by Keynot4me on 03/31/2011
I was with another bank for four years and made the biggest mistake by trying Keybank. When you use debit cards with most banks, you are able to access your available balance by phone or the computer. Example, last week I made a purchase at Mcdonalds and a couple of other restraunts during the work week. I checked my account online and those charges showed pending and were deducted from the available balance. So I know where I am at right ? Well that was until this week. I trusted the available balance and used my card for some grocery shopping. My available balance was 20.00. The next evening, my account showed I had 160.00. I knew this was wrong and checked the account again in the morning. It said -2.69. I was like what in the hell. I called the bank and they said it could have been a debit that hard posted late and they adjusted the overdraft fee. I put a few bucks in to bring it current. The next evening my direct deposit of 111.00 went in as available balance. I spent 40.00 and my balance was 71.00 I checked my online account when I got home and it was -87.00. I was hit for four overdraft fees at 147.00. I called customer service and they refused to help. They said the restraunt debits I had earlier that week had hard posted. I told them I was mislead by their available balance on the online banking. He told me to keep a ledger. Needless to say thats the whole reason you use a debit card and online banking, so you don't need a damn ledger. Anyway I called the branch manager and she reversed all the fees except one. She tried to tell me the I needed to keep better track. The bank I was with for four years, I used my debit card like a sword and the available balance online was always correct. Never not one overdraft. I will be returning to that bank. Sorry I ever tried Key.
     
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Posted by leet60 on 2011-03-31:
Never, ever, rely on the available balance showing on ATM's or online banking. There may be pending charges that have not posted or appeared on the banks computer and the balance indicated is not reliable.

To avoid overdraft charges it is vital that one keep an accurate checkbook register and enter all transactions into the register as quickly as possible after they occur - this is the only way to truly know your available balance.
Posted by momsey on 2011-03-31:
It's still your responsibility to know how much you have in your account and how much you can spend. You can never fully trust your online balance because sometimes merchants take longer to post their charges. They were nice to reverse almost all of the overdraft charges.
Posted by tnchuck100 on 2011-03-31:
Needless to say a check register would have avoided this problem entirely. No, wait. Obviously it WAS needed to be said.
Posted by Cwazychicken on 2011-03-31:
Online balances have been known to act up from time to time. One time it said i had 1000 dollars at my bank lol....but really, it was more like 50. I always keep a memory of what i spend on my bills to try to avoid this from happening. There have been times that i got confused too or my payment was a day late from what it should've been. but i learned my lesson. If you must know your balance, call your bank directly. Yea, its a hassle but better to be safe than sorry. Sometimes atms aren't even up to date..Sometimes checks or debit cards can take a week to actually leave your account. My mom used to always go over from debit card charges, and carelessly spending before knowing what was in her bank. Now she does not use a debit card and has not gone overdrawn in awhile. Debit cards can be evil if not used correctly.

Most banks work like this. My bank has helped me out when my paycheck came a day late but other wise, they tell me not to spend what i don't have.
Posted by trmn8r on 2011-03-31:
I read your complaint up to the point where you said that you rely on "the available balance shown on the bank's website, right?"

NEVER. I have never, and would never do that. You have to keep track of the balance yourself. There are many idiosyncrasies to bank balances, teller credits, etc. It is something only a bookkeeper could figure out.

The solution is quite simple - an old fashioned bank ledger. Assume anything that is sent or swipteds comes out immediately, and assume deposits will take 2 days to clear. If you do this, you should be alright.
Posted by Anonymous on 2011-03-31:
*Assume anything that is sent or swiped comes out immediately*

Exactly. It's what I do.
Posted by tnchuck100 on 2011-03-31:
Think of the millions of dollars the banks have managed to extract from clients who relied on those online and ATM balance numbers.

Even today I deposited a $5,000 check in my bank. When I got home and checked online it was shown as part of my available balance. Yes, the bank would absolutely love for me to believe that and try to spend it. As I understand how the system REALLY works I do not spend that money until the hold time has past.
Posted by Anonymous on 2011-03-31:
tn, there is no hold time on my deposits. How long is the hold time at your bank?

keynot4me, if you don't keep a running balance of your small debits, it's a good idea to just do one weekly cash debit. Then you'll only have one to keep track of and can pay cash for your small expenditures.
Posted by trmn8r on 2011-03-31:
tnchuck -> I agree the banks have benefited from the system. However, I have found most all bookkeeping systems I have had a glimpse of to be undecipherable. One example that comes to mind is my gas utility. Once they sent me a screenshot, because they are unable to send updated bills if they make changes to the account. I couldn't figure it out at all.

My takeaway is that online banking brings the consumer very close to such a system. Additionally, you have clearing issues, courtesy credits of portions of ATM deposits, etc.

I don't believe it is intentional - I think it is a consequence of giving access in a way we never had prior to online banking. And people make assumptions about what they are seeing that don't pan out. There should be a huge WARNING disclaimer, like on cigarettes.
Posted by Anonymous on 2011-03-31:
trmn8r, "There should be a huge WARNING disclaimer, like on cigarettes." Like that does any good.


Posted by trmn8r on 2011-03-31:
unslated -> I agree. It would be easier to defend the banks though.
Posted by leet60 on 2011-03-31:
+10 singsing
Posted by Anonymous on 2011-04-01:
Trusting online bank balances is like trusting your dog not to eat a t- bone steak sitting on the kitchen table. Keep a check register, write every transaction and fees down. Don't spend more money than you have and you shouldn't have any problem
Posted by Inat on 2011-04-01:
why would you ever depend on someone else to keep track of your money for you? It's YOUR money - others don't care about it. At least this is a lessons learned - now you know to keep a ledger :)
Posted by Anonymous on 2011-04-01:
Am I the only person that has not one, but two bank accounts, one with a credit union and one with a regional bank, that can actually rely on the online balance information being correct? I do not use a check register and haven't for years.

Neither of my banks hold deposits, both immediately deduct pending debit transactions from my available balance and the only thing I have to keep track of is any checks I write.

Why can't all banks do this? Oh wait..they can, they just know if they choose not to they'll have a better chance of dinging people like the OP.
Posted by FlShopper on 2011-04-01:
I always use a ledger. I trust my bookkeeping more than I trust the bank's.
Posted by Anonymous on 2011-04-01:
JC, no you're not and totally agree.

I kept meticulous records for years but came a day I realized the effort far out weighed any benefit. I use MINT.COM where I have to enter NOTHING. I have an easier time keeping track with mint than I ever did with a ledger. You are more apt to make a mistake with manual inputs than finding a bank error. Find a good local bank that doesn't play games with reported online available balances and deposit holds then quit writing checks and the need for a bank register magically dispears.

Ha, My lunch swipe from 20 minutes ago is already showing up in MINT. You gotta love the 21st century.
Posted by Anonymous on 2011-04-01:
LR, thanks for sharing about MINT.COM.

I also think a local bank or credit union is the way to go. My credit union always posts credits, then debits, each and every day. Have never had a problem with them at all.
Posted by Anonymous on 2011-04-01:
Glad to hear I'm not the only one, Lord and Sing.

Posted by Anonymous on 2011-04-01:
jc, there just has to be others. Things don't have to be so complicated if you have the correct information to begin with. After looking over MINT.COM, that could definitely be a big help for many people. I've never heard of it, until now.
Posted by DebtorBasher on 2011-04-01:
KeyBank DID reverse more fees than they had to. They usually will only reverse once in a 12 month period. The purpose of using a debit card and online banking, ISN'T so you don't have to keep a ledger..it's for convenience to access your bank information and if it doesn't match up with your ledger, then you have the info right there to find out why.

When you look at your account online, you will see a note that states:

Note: Transaction Balance does not reflect your available balance and should not be used when considering future transactions. The transaction balance is the balance after cleared activity has posted to your account. This balance does not include current day activity. Please refer to the Account Summary for your available balance.
Posted by danny54 on 2011-04-01:
Since any funds I use my debit card for come directly out of my checking account, I always log a purchase, etc. in my register immediately, even if the bank's website shows the charge won't clear for 2-3 days. Fortunately, I've never had a problem doing it that way. Also, if I know that I have an automatic withdrawal coming out during the month, I also log that at the beginning of the month so I don't forget and end up overdrawing the account.
Posted by Anonymous on 2011-04-01:
danny, I think if the register works for you, then that's great. But, for people who use their debit card like cash; i.e., many small purchases and a small balance, they may not always remember to write every little purchase down. That's where they get into trouble. I think that's a good reason for some people to make one cash withdrawal a week to cover all these little expenses. It simplifies their bookkeeping and possibly keeps them within their budget. Cash withdrawals should always be debited immediately at any bank--except for the very sleazy ones.
Posted by Fufu487 on 2011-04-01:
i feel that budgeting, in general, works differently for each individual person. For some people, cash withdrawals work. For others, check registers. Some people have multiple accounts for different purposes (one for automatic bill payments, another for general spending). I think it's up to the individual to keep adjusting your cash spending habits until you find a method thats works for you.
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Key Bank is a crooked company
Posted by Smv on 01/15/2011
Key bank stole $192 in over draft fees because of an archaic fund availability policy and then refused to refund any fees. This is a horrible bank and I will not be doing business with them
     
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Posted by tnchuck100 on 2011-01-15:
Content Rating: Insufficient Information

Posted by trmn8r on 2011-01-15:
Did you sign an agreement to the "archaic" policy when you opened the account? If so, you owe the fees.

I learned several years ago to be careful of funds availability. I always try to deposit funds a few days prior to needing them.
Posted by azRider on 2011-01-16:
the laws changed on how banks can collect fees. they can't just let your account ride any more or pull funds from a savings unless you sign to allow it now. I have to agree with one poster that says did you read the policy before you opened the account. I'm betting it was clearly stated how over draft would be handled. the new banking rules are tough and they have to charge you chances are you owe it. I don't know if a different bank will make a difference
Posted by MotleyCrueGuy on 2011-03-15:
Define "archaic".

You mean, you deposited a check for $1000 and expected immediate availability instead of asking the bank when it would be available to use?
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Excessive overdraft fees
Posted by Grifeliz1 on 04/14/2010
WATERTOWN, NEW YORK -- My husband is currently serving in the US Army. He was on his way home for leave from overseas when he called to tell me his account needed more money because an international call cost more than he thought. I transferred money over although the account was still in the good. The next day it was -$13. I transferred more money over and the following day it was -$83. I called the bank and had 2 fees out of 5 refunded. I explained he was traveling overseas with no way to check his account and when I checked it it had been fine. I transferred $200 into his account and with the 2 refunded fees the online account said he had a little over $100. The next day it was -$180. I went to the bank and they explained to me how it works in their system and why we were charged 10 overdraft fees. I gave up arguing because at the time I had thought more fees had been refunded because our negative balance had gotten smaller. The following day it the negative balance had increased. We had been charged a fee for it being negative for over 5 days which I expected but apparently one of my husband's transactions done over a week ago had been credited back to his account and then deducted again causing us to bounce yet again. I plan to take my complaints beyond this site.
     
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